That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

[Langrycleg]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

Thinking back to when I was a teenage girl, no way would I want to be the one expressing any discomfort today, I'd be branded bigot and transphobe, shunned by my peers and my life made unpleasant.

There are some who would say "well that just proves you feeling that way IS phobic", but to me it's just pushing females feelings and opinions further down the shitter.

WHY can't girls speak out when they're uneasy or uncomfortable without fear or retribution? WHY do we have to push it away and ignore it, get over it? That's not the message I want to be sending to my daughter.

And then follows this culture of fear, you might be uncomfortable but you better not show it, in fact, go the complete opposite way and fall over yourself to show what a right on ally you are. Go after that girl over there who isn't smart enough to shut up, not me, I'm cool remember?

Considering she was voted head girl by her peers, one can assume it was a positive experience.

In my daughters single sex school, head girls are voted on after they have presented the things they seek to improve for the school, for all the school. And not just one issue.

Can I ask what your child platformed for to be voted head girl. Or was it purely a popularity vote.

Or was it a stick it to the old bring on the new?

Either way, you mentioned that your child’s current group elevates them. From the story as you have told it, this has been done all along, the current group is merely the result of this. You, as parents caring for your child, smoothed every path to allow your child to live the way they needed.

Yet, you discount autistic girls as merely needing counseling. when did you decide that counseling to come to terms with GD wasn’t working so you just smoothed the way to keep your family together. And so GD is in your mind something that cannot be counselled out like the distress for girl with autism in your mind.

@DickKerrLadies

I note that transwomen are often seen as 'better' types of girls/women. Cooler, more popular etc.

Honestly that’s one of the saddest things for me. That girls are socialised from such a young age to centre other people’s feelings first. Girls celebrating a boy for being better at being a girl than they are. They have no idea that they won’t get any reward or thanks for this at all. People socialised as male will take that as their due - of course they come first, women and girls are support humans to what men & boys want

But that's just life. Not everybody is going to be comfortable all the time. On a crowded plane somebody is going to have to sit next to the one with horrendous body odor. Look on any mainstream education thread and you will find somebody who dislikes autistic children in their child's classroom too, but it's too fucking bad. You don't get to control other people or public spaces. If you don't like something, move.*

Just tell your other daughter that when she has to allow a male customs officer to strip search her.

@NotBadConsidering

I think this ideology is being displayed here:

Wow.

Graphics as always speak a thousand words. So succinct.

I'm supposing there will be some quote shortly saying that this is not happening, it'll only ever be one or two males.

But they'll forget about devout Muslim girls who cannot use toilets (as they must, before prayer) in the company of any non-family male member.
And that these girls will have to stay at home or be forced to use the Disabled toilets. As has happened at a work place of mine. Equating Muslim women with being Disabled in the name of inclusivity for narcissistic men.

@Winesalot

Considering she was voted head girl by her peers, one can assume it was a positive experience.

In my daughters single sex school, head girls are voted on after they have presented the things they seek to improve for the school, for all the school. And not just one issue.

Can I ask what your child platformed for to be voted head girl. Or was it purely a popularity vote.

Or was it a stick it to the old bring on the new?

Either way, you mentioned that your child’s current group elevates them. From the story as you have told it, this has been done all along, the current group is merely the result of this. You, as parents caring for your child, smoothed every path to allow your child to live the way they needed.

Yet, you discount autistic girls as merely needing counseling. when did you decide that counseling to come to terms with GD wasn’t working so you just smoothed the way to keep your family together. And so GD is in your mind something that cannot be counselled out like the distress for girl with autism in your mind.

Her platform was something about using art as self-care, something along those lines.

I think gd is something that CAN be counselled and grown out of when it's social focused and not body focused. When it presents as a form of body dysmorphia, that's when the risk of suicide, eating disorders and severe self-harm makes blockers and transition the lesser of two evils.

they all claim she is the coolest person they know, pretty confident, yeah.

Just saying at that age I thought my brother was the coolest because he was my brother and I loved him (use brother because that is MY story). The reality at that point was that he was on his last warning for work, drank too much and was a stoner who loved fast shot muscle cars. I still thought he was cool. I also acknowledged for our area, for the time, that was also considered wonderfully ‘sticking it to the hierarchy’. Now if, because of his actions the laws changed to accommodate his needs and allow harm to be done, I would still love him, he is my brother and we disagree on lots these days and agree on lots. But I would look back and know that it was not cool at all really.

Fastedbrownie
Are we talking about dd's school or sd's boarding?

I thought it was quite clear what we were talking about.

You said :
dd and her friends have no issue with transgirls sharing their toilets.

I asked you
And are you sure all the girls in the school feel like this? Have you asked them all? Do all the other parents agree? Have you asked them all?

So, did you ask all the other girls in the school and all their parents?

Considering she was voted head girl by her peers, one can assume it was a positive experience

You can assume what you like, but since this is the same child/young adult who has a meltdown and ruins everyone's day if they don't get their own way, perhaps you should expect everyone else to take that with a large pinch of salt.

The same child who expects girls to use the teacher's toilet. And you're prepared to go to court over it! The same child/young adult on whose behalf you expect girls to have therapy if they can't cope with male pattern behaviour in their intimate space.

Doesn't your head ache with the cognitive dissonance when you simultaneously complain that you're worried they're put on a pedestal?!

Doesn't it ever occur to you to stop doing it?

@OldCrone

Fastedbrownie Are we talking about dd's school or sd's boarding?

I thought it was quite clear what we were talking about.

You said :
dd and her friends have no issue with transgirls sharing their toilets.

I asked you
And are you sure all the girls in the school feel like this? Have you asked them all? Do all the other parents agree? Have you asked them all?

So, did you ask all the other girls in the school and all their parents?

Considering my dd isn't trans, why would I ask parents at her school what they thought on this very niche subject? I didn't even do this when sd was at school. If a parent of a transchild came and asked for my support and guidence in navigating the school, I would gladly help, but outside of that my days of school and trangenderism in any form are over.

I think gd is something that CAN be counselled and grown out of when it's social focused and not body focused. When it presents as a form of body dysmorphia, that's when the risk of suicide, eating disorders and severe self-harm makes blockers and transition the lesser of two evils.

Does your child understand that it's not possible to change sex and that they will always be male and that is why it's sometimes appropriate to make a distinction between women and men who want to be women?

Being unhappy with their body doesn't give them an automatic right to impose themself on women who might be uncomfortable with or feel threatened by their presence.

Women are human. We also have human rights. We are not obliged to put our needs second to any male, no matter how troubled he is.

Because the votes head boy/girl, student council, prom queen/king yadda yadda has always been based on other kids liking/admiring/not fearing that person???

Anyone who buys that has obviously never been to high school.

I thought it was so cool driving off alone with an older ‘girl’ too. Until it all went wrong.

Your sd having friends means nothing. Every school queen b had tones of friends and admirers, never stopped them being a bully to other kids. Most kids have friends who adore them at some point and most are bloody cruel to others at some point.

There’s still only one sex who is bigger and stronger and thinks they are entitled to women’s bodies and spaces.

Doesn't your head ache with the cognitive dissonance when you simultaneously complain that you're worried they're put on a pedestal?!

Doesn't it ever occur to you to stop doing it?

This.

Considering my dd isn't trans, why would I ask parents at her school what they thought on this very niche subject?

I don't understand why you're having such difficulty understanding my posts, so on the assumption that you genuinely believe that my questions haven't been clear, I'll have one more try.

You said:
dd and her friends have no issue with transgirls sharing their toilets.

You have concluded from this that it must therefore follow that it is alright in all circumstances for 'transgirls' to use the girls' toilets.

I have also made an assumption, that the school is of such a size that not all the girls in the school are your dd's friends.

Are you absolutely certain that all the girls in the school (that includes the ones who are not in your dd's circle of friends) as well as all their parents 'have no issue with transgirls sharing their toilets'?

If you do not know this, or if there are any girls in the school (even just one) who are not happy with this arrangement, you cannot say there is 'no issue' with this arrangement.

@Datun

Considering she was voted head girl by her peers, one can assume it was a positive experience

You can assume what you like, but since this is the same child/young adult who has a meltdown and ruins everyone's day if they don't get their own way, perhaps you should expect everyone else to take that with a large pinch of salt.

The same child who expects girls to use the teacher's toilet. And you're prepared to go to court over it! The same child/young adult on whose behalf you expect girls to have therapy if they can't cope with male pattern behaviour in their intimate space.

Doesn't your head ache with the cognitive dissonance when you simultaneously complain that you're worried they're put on a pedestal?!

Doesn't it ever occur to you to stop doing it?

I don't think I am putting her on a pedestal, I'm just doing what any good parent would do. When your child has a need, you move heaven and earth to meet that need. I very easily could've had a severely mentally ill child who couldn't function in day to day life, but instead I have a child who is thriving in every way a person can thrive. That wouldn't have happened if I wasn't prepared to have difficult conversation with her schools etc to spell out very clearly that we need xyz, and in doing so taught my children how to advocate for their own needs and the needs of others. I'm very proud of where my sd is, as I am with my other two older children. I hope to one day say the same about my youngest three.

Women are human. We also have human rights. We are not obliged to put our needs second to any male, no matter how troubled he is

No one ever thinks about the messages they send to their children. They cab think long term aviut the damage to one set of people by refusing to go along with something. But the other women amd girls are never considered beyond the situation of dealing with their child.

Do people truly believe that the daily occurrence of having to accept males and believe in the ideology to protect the males , no matter how much they like the individual in question, doesn't some how result in a lifelong message being absorbed that not only is it "normal" to have to be half dressed in front of any male, that it's actually hateful towards and distressing for the male to be even the slightest bit uncomfortable about it.

How do people think this will actually pan out? When every adult around them is telling them that they are the problem not the boundary crossing, self absorbed males ?

How does anyone sleep at night when they would actively watch their dd work their arses off at sport or academically only to lose out to a male who shouldn't even be there ?

How do you honestly tell your dd that they are wrong for entering a female only space and expecting a female only space ajd that no matter how much danger having males in there puts them in, they must not only accept it but validate the identity along side it.

@OldCrone

Considering my dd isn't trans, why would I ask parents at her school what they thought on this very niche subject?

I don't understand why you're having such difficulty understanding my posts, so on the assumption that you genuinely believe that my questions haven't been clear, I'll have one more try.

You said:
dd and her friends have no issue with transgirls sharing their toilets.

You have concluded from this that it must therefore follow that it is alright in all circumstances for 'transgirls' to use the girls' toilets.

I have also made an assumption, that the school is of such a size that not all the girls in the school are your dd's friends.

Are you absolutely certain that all the girls in the school (that includes the ones who are not in your dd's circle of friends) as well as all their parents 'have no issue with transgirls sharing their toilets'?

If you do not know this, or if there are any girls in the school (even just one) who are not happy with this arrangement, you cannot say there is 'no issue' with this arrangement.

If there is, I'm not any of those other girl's mother. It's not my responsibility to advocate for them if they have an issue sharing toilets with transgirls, it's for them and their parents to speak to the school to try and sort something out, exactly in the same way it was mine and sd's responsibility to sort it out for her.

Anyone who buys that has obviously never been to high school.

Yes. Anti establishment was always the theme at my school, until I hit sixth form and realized we were actually the ones making decisions that impacted on others. And suddenly, thinking someone was ‘cool’ and voting them in seemed actually just a sign of immaturity or virtue signaling.

I remember the pressure to virtue signal at school. And then it naturally happened at uni. After I had to make my way in the real world, I realized how little substance there was behind that type of behavior.

So yes, anyone basing their entitlements on receiving ‘votes’ from active Social justice warriors and those who wanna be SJW is going to have a huge shock when they are not elevated anymore.

My worry is that when a person has been elevated this way, and it certainly feeds the ego, that when they have to deal with realities, do they then become more extreme.

Does someone who has had their way smoothed , become more extreme on their view if they feel their entitlement might be denied by society as a whole?

Absolutely wine. Non conformity really is just a different form of conformity. Being an independent thinker is much rarer, and I doubt there’s many teenagers who are and those who are likely don’t feel brave enough to speak up.

If there is, I'm not any of those other girl's mother. It's not my responsibility to advocate for them if they have an issue sharing toilets with transgirls, it's for them and their parents to speak to the school to try and sort something out, exactly in the same way it was mine and sd's responsibility to sort it out for her

But that way of "sorting it out" relied on other people. People who weren't asked and didn't consent to be your child's vehicle of validation.

To reiterate and summarise several PPs - a whole generation of young girls are being taught / browbeaten / socialised into ignoring their instincts of discomfort or of not being safe in spaces where they are meant to be safe from males. The consequences of this frighten me terribly.

It seems that fasted’s step daughter had a very positive schooling. Shame about all the girls who were pressured into validating this trans girls, shame about any Muslim girls who might have had to change dorms /school, shame about any girls who had any sexual trauma or just were very uncomfortable.

It is very clear that fasted doesn’t even know if any of those girls suffered and she has clearly stated that she doesn’t care.

My son is 10. I am teaching him to be respectful, kind and considerate to girls. I am telling him that just by being male, he will have certain advantages due to biology and might make girls uncomfortable. I wish more women taught their male children to be considerate and kind.

For the record, I am teaching my girls to be polite and fair. I would never tell them to be kind. I hope I can balance a bit of what society is doing to them.

Had she been sharing with girl's like she used to at camps, we would've spoken with the leaders to sort arrangements out so everybody was comfortable and informed. Very rarely that included rearranging cabins so girls whose parents didn't want them sharing were removed,

This makes me really sad. So girls who for a number of possible reasons could not share accommodation with a male were removed from their own spaces. Seriously!!!

If there is, I'm not any of those other girl's mother. It's not my responsibility to advocate for them if they have an issue sharing toilets with transgirls, it's for them and their parents to speak to the school to try and sort something out, exactly in the same way it was mine and sd's responsibility to sort it out for her.

So would you accept it if the girls parents put their foot down and said that their daughter was not going to share with your sc and would not be using other facilities? I do hope you would be prepared to work with the school to find alternative for sc.
Bearing in mind these girls have a legal right to those single sex facilities despite what Stonewall etc would prefer.

I think the general idea is that 'other girls' are non player characters, basically.