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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

999 replies

Langrycleg · 01/02/2021 10:56

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Winesalot · 02/02/2021 23:45

There might have to be some compromises on both sides as sport finds ways to manage trans inclusion, but there's no way trans women will ever dominate women's sport - there isn't enough of them for a start.

This shows that you completely have no care or regard at all for females jj. The science is very clear on this. And it will continue to be clear on this because there is no way it can be fair.

So. Knowing that it is not fair, and has been proven to be dangerous, you believe females should just let males compete against us if they identify as girls or women. Just to make you happy. Nothing care at all about whether or not a female who has trained all her life loses to a male, as there is only a few of them. Nothing to worry about.

Do you even think about what you write? Females have been told to accept this kind of treatment for centuries. You just have no idea and you don’t even care.

If a girl or woman dies because of another Fallon Fox.... it’s ok. There is only a few so it won’t matter.

If another girl counting on a scholarship to get into university or college loses to a male..... it’s ok... there is not many so be nice. It makes no difference really.

If a GB cycling female loses the spot she was likely to have won for the Olympics because a male champion has transitioned.... it ok... it is only a few. It doesn’t matter over all because transwomen will never dominate women’s sport.

If a rugby player who has broken a coaches foot and is known to ‘fold women opponents like a deck chair’ one day does an illegal tackle and severely harms someone... it’s ok... it is inclusive to include males when they want to play against women despite all the science saying it is negligent to allow it knowing the prevalence of significant brain injury due to female physiology..... transwomen will never dominate women’s sport and there is only a few ...

If a female Kent cricketer has agains missed out on woman player of the season or even a spot on the side because a male uses their superior training, past opportunities and physiology to again smash women’s records using a male size bat against slower bowlers, lighter equipment etc. and while that male continues to perform as a medicocre male on the men’s team they also play in..... it’s ok, it is only a few and they will never dominate women’s sport.

Have you actually read what you wrote jj? That you don’t care at all cannot be clearer. That you are keen to simply perpetuate women’s oppression is also clear.

CharlieParley · 02/02/2021 23:48

@jj1968

If you are arguing that there is a subcategory of males to whom this does not apply, you have to provide the evidence for this assertion.

So are you claming gay men represent the same threat to women as straight men? That we should assume this to be the case until proven otherwise. What about trans women post surgery? Are they as likely to be a rapist as a straight man even though it would be legally impossible for them to rape anyone? I don't think it's me having a logic fail.

Risk analysis is class analysis. All males also includes the man in the wheelchair, the man who lost his penis to an accident, the man who is blind etc. We still make laws based on risk associated with the entire sex class and include all of those males. This is true for all other safeguarding measures - drink driving laws, DBS checks, anti-fraud measures. We do not exempt the nice people who'd never dream of doing wrong from being subject to these rules. And the nice people understand why.

Also, post-op transsexuals are less than 1% of those who identify as trans. Even 90% of chemically or surgically castrated males are capable of rape, half of them without erectile dysfunction meds. There have been cases of post-op transsexuals committing heinous crimes against women and children.

They are male. Female-only provisions are not for them.

CorvusPurpureus · 02/02/2021 23:53

Still saying NO. Still unsurprised by the reaction. 
That's not how society works though is it. Consent is gained via the democractic process. The GRA and EA were introduced within that process. Biden was elected by that process. So as far as consent can be established by a democracy it has been granted. Clearly very many women do not feel like you or Biden wouldn't have got near the Whitehouse.

We are back to you not understanding how consent works. & also, that your basic stance is 'tough. You can't tell me I can't be in your space'.

You can try to firfw

CorvusPurpureus · 02/02/2021 23:55

You can try to force your way in. I can continue to object to this.

334bu · 02/02/2021 23:58

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3725560-A-picture-speaks-a-thousand-words-Transwomen-in-women-s-sport?pg=1

Increasingly transwomen seem to be extending their earlier male athletic careers by in their forties competing in female events.
Also as women's professional sport is becoming more lucrative, we are seeing more transwomen taking women's places in these teams. Particularly in South America where sport may be a way out of poverty.

NiceGerbil · 02/02/2021 23:59

'Do you really really get how common creepy men are and how they walk just this line of not illegal? Do you know how young you are when men start looking, commenting? Do you know how scary it is simply to have a man look you up and down up and down. Stare at you like he wants to eat you. He enjoys your discomfort.

Yes I really really get it, I've been on the end of it.'

Yes then. And so have I. Starting age 13 or so and carrying on until my mid 40s.

Multiple multiple things. Illegal. Not illegal. Scary. Upsetting. Over and over.

I'm 5'3 and was about 8 stone for a lot of that time. I'm disabled. I cannot run away.

But. I'm fierce. I have stepped in when stuff has been going on with men v girls. As a result I've been punched in the face so hard my feet lifted off the ground. Suspected broken jaw. Had men front up to me, saying let's take it outside. Had beer poured over my head. Had all sorts of shit shouted at me.

And that's the milder stuff.

The answer to MEN being wankers to those they perceive as weaker (small men, weak men, men with disabilities, men who are perceived as gay. And yes pretty much ALL women). Is not to put one group of at risk men in with the women. Men are not women. We have seen from what happened with that ? Gym challenge in a prison where the trans woman won it hands down. And other men are at risk. Do we let them all in?

We need to sort out MEN'S ATTITUDES AND CRIMINALITY. we could have been allies. Great allies to help gender nonconforming people across the board. And also men who are picked on for other reasons. It would have been great.

But no

JJ why not? Just, why can you not see this?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2021 00:01

You can try to force your way in. I can continue to object to this.

Exactly. Decent male people respect women and girls and our right to spaces free from males when we are vulnerable. I'm not taking lectures on morality from people who have no respect for female people.

LangClegsInSpace · 03/02/2021 00:02

Consent is gained via the democractic process.

Blimey

BurlyShriggs · 03/02/2021 00:04

That's not how society works though is it. Consent is gained via the democractic process. The GRA and EA were introduced within that process. Biden was elected by that process. So as far as consent can be established by a democracy it has been granted.
Incorrect in the UK - consent has NOT been granted. Stonewall et al have wormed away within organisations to falsely equate gender and sex.

NiceGerbil · 03/02/2021 00:06

Gay men DO sexually assault women!

Not all of them obviously...

But bum pinching slapping, boob grabbing, face licking etc etc blah.

We're supposed to 'laugh it off' as it's a joke as they're gay.

You must know this stuff? Surely?

How old are you JJ? you don't have to answer.

I went to trade back in the day. Gay and lesbian clubs in Manchester.

You think we're homophobic? Well I can't speak for everyone obviously.

Think fgs. Your position is emotional and illogical. I know it's something you need and want and etc.

You get that women simply CANNOT turn a blind eye to sex. It's too fucking dangerous

Who do men really fear?

The sharp tongued girls at school or the group of men who will beat them halfway. Or more. To death.

Come on JJ.

You've been here for ages. You know this stuff. Why?

Winesalot · 03/02/2021 00:15

@334bu

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3725560-A-picture-speaks-a-thousand-words-Transwomen-in-women-s-sport?pg=1

Increasingly transwomen seem to be extending their earlier male athletic careers by in their forties competing in female events.
Also as women's professional sport is becoming more lucrative, we are seeing more transwomen taking women's places in these teams. Particularly in South America where sport may be a way out of poverty.

This is also true. How many women can maintain their peak into their 40s? Or even stay almost competitive against younger women. And of course, menopause.

Yet... there is now a male in their 40s going to probably win a medal in the next Olympics while I know of no weightlifting women competing at world champion level at that age. Oh, and their selection in the team and win will mean the women who were counting on that win to earn a living won’t.

There is a football player in Australia that is playing in their 50s against women decades younger. They used to be an elite athlete but now play football and takes a position that should be a females. Like do you know any 50 year old women able to do that? Fair?

But it is ok, it is only a few and they won’t dominate women’s sport. They won’t cause any harm or if they do, it is only women being harmed.

Do you begin to understand that this is so unfair and even dangerous that even the ‘few’ who do dominate each sport causes harm to women?

What compromise do you suggest needs to be made by women here? And by the way, each one of these males has the capacity to compete in the MALE completion.

Or, because you tell us that males have done shitty things to transwomen, males who identify as women deserve to compete and win and set records and earn the money, of women. But .... as you say. It is only a few.

By the way, it is shitty when males cause any person harm, whether it is women or other males who identify as women.

Fastedbrownie · 03/02/2021 00:17

@SqueakyCarrots

Actually I think it’s likely that tw won’t dominate women’s sports for long. After this current generation of tw who are clearly benefiting from their decades of male bodies and male hormones that will be the end of it, Because the next generation will be tw who took puberty blockers and care living with all the horrific consequences of being treated with unlicensed drugs like crumbling bones and chronic pain and reduced heart capacity. So they won’t have any way of competing in sports at all, let alone beating women.

There’s something very seriously wrong with a movement that wants to disable its gnc males that way.

(Not including all the male identifying male bodied sports men who will come up short and choose to be a bearded woman to top women’s sports rankings of course).

See, this is this where I think a lot of you have gone down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories. Unlicensed, untested drugs? The very first blocker we tried was spironolactone. It's one of the most commomly prescribed medications. Over 18 million people take it world wide for reasons that having nothing to do with transgenderism, for reasons such pcos, heart failure, or as a diuretic (hence the constant need to go to the toilet). They're not injecting our kids with radioactive fentanyl.
334bu · 03/02/2021 00:27

They're not injecting our kids with radioactive fentanyl.

No just stuff that dramatically reduces their bone density and as a normal puberty is not allowed to kick in after stopping blockers , who knows what effect this might have on their cognitive development as proper trials have never been done.

NiceGerbil · 03/02/2021 00:29

JJ I hope you are ok.

Honestly. Please read and think. It's not personal. It's about every woman and girl in the world losing their words.

It's not trivial.

And the vast majority of women who are speaking out most have been fighting against gender conformity- boys are like this and girls are like that- sex role, toxic masculinity for years.

We could have been great, natural allies.

Women turned a blind eye. But when it gets to the point where we have lost our words. Our category. As a group oppressed all over the world for as long as we know.

It's just a no.

DM me if you would like. I'm happy to chat. Everyone I know thinks I'm very nice :D

Trade was awesome btw Grin

NiceGerbil · 03/02/2021 00:30

That's a serious offer JJ.

I'm not a demon or something.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 03/02/2021 00:30

There may well be misogynist gay men but they are not likely to sexually assault women at the same rate as straight men.

I don’t think I’ve seen many clearer instances of absolute misogyny (as in not even recognising women as fully human) as a cause of sexual violence than in the case of Karen, aka Mark, Jones. It’s absolutely chilling.

Convicted killer Jones - a biologically male person who is sexually attracted to other biologically male people - used a woman, literally used her as if she were just a thing, as a tool to get what he* wanted - to get sent back to prison, in order to have “gender reassignment” surgery.

*This person was still known as Mark Jones at the time of this offence.

In 2003, aged 21, she was sentenced to life imprisonment after admitting to the attempted rape of a female shop assistant in the north of Manchester.

She forced a lemon into the woman's mouth, punched her in the face and held her by the hair in a back room of Transformations, a shop in Prestwich for men who wish to buy and wear female clothing and accessories.

The attempted rape was so terrifying the woman told the police she thought she was going to die and the attack only ended when Jones failed to become aroused.

[Jones] said the attack was as a cry for help so that she could go back to prison and have the sex change operation she had needed all her life.

That poor woman. How awful to have such a dreadful association with such a commonplace thing as a lemon. How would it be to be triggered by something you could come across so easily? How have his actions curtailed her life? She was on his side, FFS. Working in a shop selling “women’s” clothes to male people who wanted to wear them. But she wasn’t even a human being to him. None of her thoughts, feelings, wishes mattered to him. Only what he wanted.

This person on their release from prison for the second time was feted as an activist and invited to the House of Lords. This person who has left one person dead, and another deeply traumatised, gets fawned over and is listened to by people at the highest level. This person is probably one of those advocating that other women sexually assaulted by biologically male trans people should have to refer to their assaillants as “she”. I hope his victim was at least spared that act of cruelty.

Jones used this woman like an inanimate object. And it worked. Jones got want Jones wanted. Nobody has said no to Jones.

Well I’m saying fucking no to Jones. Nobody’s listening to me because I’m just a boring old cunty type of woman, with my boring old adult human female life, marked and constrained as it is by the boring, predictable discrimination and abuse I’ve suffered as a direct result of being born with a cunt, and the ongoing impact that’s had on me; nobody’s listening to me because male privilege means male people, however they identify, don’t have to listen to me.

But I’m still saying no. No to Jones in any women only space. No to the idea that Jones actually is any type of woman. No to all males in all women only spaces. No to the idea that any males are actually a type of woman.

The likes of jj can ignore me all they like and they probably will, because male privilege. But let the record show that there are those of us saying no. No, a hateful man who stuffed a lemon inside a woman’s mouth, who punched her in the face and put her in genuine fear for her life, and would certainly have followed through and completed his rape of her had he been physically able to - no, that man is not now a woman and has no place being in the company of women. And not giving women the choice about that is pure misogyny.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5440153/Trans-convict-invited-speak-House-Lords.html

Fastedbrownie · 03/02/2021 00:35

To settle the argument - most transwomen keep their penises. How much of a risk that poses largely depends upon the medication taken. While on blockers, there's practically no risk. Those transitioning from blockers or on fhr, the risk is probably no more than it is from a natalfemale. The real risk comes from those are not medically transitioning or superficially transitioning using feminising drugs. But the flip side of that is you're probably unlikely to notice the earlier two groups either.

CharlieParley · 03/02/2021 00:35

That's a puberty blocker/feminising medication for male children, FastedBrownie, not for female ones.

Unlicensed and untested refers to the most commonly used puberty blockers used in girls, like Lupron (which is prescribed off-label). Untested refers to the fact that we do not have data showing that the affirmative approach of puberty blockers during normal puberty offers better outcomes than the watchful waiting approach. We don't even have good research showing the risks outweigh the benefits for girls treated for precocious puberty, let alone in dysphoric girls.

NiceGerbil · 03/02/2021 00:44

The puberty blocking drugs that are used, have been used previously with precocious puberty.

(Thinking about that. Hmm. Not thought before. Who defines what is too early? Probably another thread. Got lots of thoughts on that).

Step back.

We are mammals. Specifically, great apes. Ones with big brains that are incredibly successful.

Puberty is a natural process. Like. Birth. Toddling. Learning. Growing. That's what we do.

Puberty is a time of massive change. We grow up. We mature in mind and body. Separation from the family occurs (aka hiding in your room and being very embarrassed to be seen with your parents etc etc).

This is normal. It is how we develop as mammals. That's just. Fundamental.

Stop that? For years? And then go to cross sex hormones so it never happens...

I'm a mammal, a human. Tampering with the basics of our everything. How we have evolved to be. Biologically. It's a big experiment.

And I mean I'm not a crazed Christian or anything. I love science. I studied science.

This feels wrong.

And women say things feel wrong about babies children etc etc. We're usually not wrong, no matter how the men who pushed milk substitutes, lying down to give birth etc etc think so.

NiceGerbil · 03/02/2021 00:50

FastedBrownie you got some proof etc?

My husband has off the scale low testosterone. He could compete officially against women in sport right now.

He's well over 6 foot and used to play rugby. He can lift some stupid amount of weights. His penis works fine.

The testosterone levels used as standard were , I believe, measured in the USA in the 50s.

Show us the proof.

Winesalot · 03/02/2021 00:51

I have read accounts of women who were given Lupron for precocious puberty who by their twenties had teeth falling out, significant joint issues, bone density issues. And this was after they came off it and went through puberty. I was reading about groups forming for action.

Lupron has major negative side effects it seems for use in children.

Winesalot · 03/02/2021 00:53

Who defines what is too early?

In the groups I read about some as young as 6 maybe younger. I have heard about cases as young as 4.

I have friends who’s daughters started at 8 and it was considered normal.

NiceGerbil · 03/02/2021 00:54

Oh and I believe there are studies about chemical castration for sex offenders.

Where they carried on offending but used objects and with increased violence as they couldn't get off.

Fastedbrownie · 03/02/2021 01:05

@NiceGerbil

FastedBrownie you got some proof etc?

My husband has off the scale low testosterone. He could compete officially against women in sport right now.

He's well over 6 foot and used to play rugby. He can lift some stupid amount of weights. His penis works fine.

The testosterone levels used as standard were , I believe, measured in the USA in the 50s.

Show us the proof.

Proof of what?

If you're on fhr, you don't simply have low testosterone, you have low testosterone with high cross-sex hormones. Now, if you're on fhr coming off blockers, you've NEVER had normal levels of testosterone. You stastically have less testosterone than the average biological female.
If you're on blockers, your penis is not working properly and libido is next to non-existent. Coming off blockers, I can't tell you because I haven't inspected my 21 year old's penis function lately, but over a year later libido is still not at a normal level.

NiceGerbil · 03/02/2021 01:16

'To settle the argument - most transwomen keep their penises. How much of a risk that poses largely depends upon the medication taken. While on blockers, there's practically no risk. Those transitioning from blockers or on fhr, the risk is probably no more than it is from a natalfemale'

Proof of this.

And what of the fact that there is no need to do anything whatsoever to be a woman, than just say it.