That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

[Langrycleg]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

if women are pushed out of sports

Get real j j. Women already are being pushed out of sports. What planet have you lived on for the past few years or is this another n+1 scenario.

And it is absolutely criminal that clubs knowing now the dangers of concussion and early dementia have allowed males to play rugby with females.

However, I am absolutely fine with activists campaigning to get programmes in place to encourage transwomen to play sport and to organize an ‘open’ category for them to play in.

But the science is absolutely clear here. Or are you that much of a science denier?

Actually I think it’s likely that tw won’t dominate women’s sports for long. After this current generation of tw who are clearly benefiting from their decades of male bodies and male hormones that will be the end of it, Because the next generation will be tw who took puberty blockers and care living with all the horrific consequences of being treated with unlicensed drugs like crumbling bones and chronic pain and reduced heart capacity. So they won’t have any way of competing in sports at all, let alone beating women.

There’s something very seriously wrong with a movement that wants to disable its gnc males that way.

(Not including all the male identifying male bodied sports men who will come up short and choose to be a bearded woman to top women’s sports rankings of course).

Toscanello

To be fair, the question that was being asked at the time was along the lines of

‘Should an adult male with a penis have the right to access a communal changing room with teenaged girls and women.’

As you can see, it is not about just about cubicled facilities but the many communal change rooms still in use in UK today.

JJ when you think of a transwomen, what image do you have in your head? What characteristics. What do they look like?

They look like you? (I have no idea what you look like but the girls at school bullied you for being feminine).

You get that if a man who is a man and looks like a man and fancies women and is a man and is a6'5 muscular rugby playing man, a drunk man. Comes into women's stuff. We can no longer tell him to fuck off, or report him. Do you get that?

Do you really really get that.

Do you really really get how common creepy men are and how they walk just this line of not illegal? Do you know how young you are when men start looking, commenting? Do you know how scary it is simply to have a man look you up and down up and down. Stare at you like he wants to eat you. He enjoys your discomfort.

Now in the olden days, in general, he would not have followed you into the bog. And if he did, you could say to the other women help creepy man.

Now what? He's done nothing illegal. He's ok to follow into the ladies. None of the women can say anything. Can the girl?

He's done nothing wrong. The best thing ever for creepy men everywhere.

Squeaky I have no doubt that later transitioning will continue

And that various nations will be looking carefully at how to exploit the rules in sports

Plenty of examples of sports coaches bodies etc doing awful things to people without their consent, to win.

SqueakyCarrots

I disagree though. I think there will still be mature age transitioners because you are forgetting one of the groups who are transitioning. I think we will continue to see these males transition around the same ages they are now. I could be wrong though.

@334bu

**But you will never admit that transwomen are just as likely to be violent towards women as any other members of the male sex class

Because I don't believe it's true that why.**

Any evidence for this belief? Crime statistics. M OJ statistics on prisoners offending. Research peer reviewed papers? Anything?

I think it's pretty blatantly obvious tbh and so the onus is on those who claim it isn't to prove otherwise, just as it would be if someone claimed gay men represent the same sexual threat to women as straight men. According to most GC people a significant number of trans women are gay men, that alone would be enough to make trans women overall less of a threat unless you are claiming that trans women attracted to women are a greater threat to women than straight men and so that makes up the numbers. Are you claiming that?

but there's no way trans women will ever dominate women's sport - there isn't enough of them for a start.

Just a handful of transwomen have negatively affected hundreds of women and girls already. The fact you don’t see these women and girls as important is entirely what I would expect from you jj.

I was being flippant. Sorry if that’s not obvious.

But it is seriously fucked that anyone would want to put any kid through the consequences of pb the way transactivists do. I live with chronic pain, the idea of choosing this for any kid is beyond disturbing. While I agree there will be loads of adult men abusing the loophole in sports the way there will be in every other sphere (thought I had made that obvious) there will be a whole heap of younger transitioners who can’t compete in any sport because of the effects of pb, who can’t have sex because if under developed genitals, who will be sterile, and who still won’t be anything like their idea of what the opposite sex is.

I'm not going to quote your entire comment jj1968 but you know that the lives of women and girls have already changed for the worse. Because we told you exactly what has happened.

You know that rape crisis services are experiencing problems because we have told you about the problems women and girls have experienced because males are included in the female-only therapeutic environment. Because we told you about meeting their highest representatives who told us our needs matter less than males who identify as trans. And who then publicly declare that there have never been any issues whatsoever.

A great many of us have explained in detail how in just how many ways transgender ideology and legislation is damaging our rights and our lives.

We have also, frequently, said that none of this is necessary. It does not solve the issues of marginalisation or discrimination against those who identify as trans. It does not promote acceptance. You've said it yourself - you're experiencing more not less problems. We can protect people who identify as trans without erasing women's rights. But for some reason, that is not an acceptable option.

And to claim this isn't organised is laughable.

Yogyakarta Principles Plus 10 - Principle 31 calls on all states on this planet to remove the category of sex from all laws, policies and regulations.

That is the charter of your movement. That is the end goal. Remove sex from all laws. It's not rocket science to understand what that means for rights and protections based on sex.

According to most gc literature around 10% of tw are gay men iirc.

And gay men are every bit as likely to be misogynistic as straight men. The idea gay men are somehow a sweet gentle non threatening friend to women is a dangerous illusion.

As tw are male bodied they come under male stats on the risk posed to women. The onus is on you to prove otherwise. The minimal research there is suggests they pose the same risk. Until you prove otherwise that’s the bench mark.

thnk it's pretty blatantly obvious tbh and so the onus is on those who claim it isn't to prove otherwise, just as it would be if someone claimed gay men represent the same sexual threat to women as straight men. According to most GC people a significant number of trans women are gay men, that alone would be enough to make trans women overall less of a threat unless you are claiming that trans women attracted to women are a greater threat to women than straight men and so that makes up the numbers. Are you claiming that?

99% of all sex offenders are male. All evidence in the public domain points to transwomen sharing the same patterns of criminality as the rest of their sex class. As to sexuality I would assume that trans people's sexuality will have a similar pattern to those people who are not trans, so why would there be more homosexual transwomen than other men. Unfortunately the reality remains that transwomen are just as likely and also just as unlikely to be sexual predators as other males.

Do you really really get how common creepy men are and how they walk just this line of not illegal? Do you know how young you are when men start looking, commenting? Do you know how scary it is simply to have a man look you up and down up and down. Stare at you like he wants to eat you. He enjoys your discomfort.

Yes I really really get it, I've been on the end of it.

I think it's pretty blatantly obvious tbh and so the onus is on those who claim it isn't to prove otherwise, just as it would be if someone claimed gay men represent the same sexual threat to women as straight men.

This is a logic error. Males as a class pose a higher risk to the female sex class than females do. If you are arguing that there is a subcategory of males to whom this does not apply, you have to provide the evidence for this assertion. Otherwise the status quo - all males are a risk - stands.

According to most GC people a significant number of trans women are gay men, that alone would be enough to make trans women overall less of a threat unless you are claiming that trans women attracted to women are a greater threat to women than straight men and so that makes up the numbers. Are you claiming that?

Incorrect. We are saying that the data shows that only a small minority of males who identify as trans are homosexual. The vast majority are neither transsexual nor are they homosexual. They are attracted to females. As you well know. Homosexual transsexuals have always been the minority group among male transsexuals, but now that the trans umbrella encompasses a whole range of people who are neither transsexual nor suffer from gender dysphoria, the overall percentage of homosexual transsexuals is even smaller.

@IWillSqueakAgain

According to most gc literature around 10% of tw are gay men iirc.

And gay men are every bit as likely to be misogynistic as straight men. The idea gay men are somehow a sweet gentle non threatening friend to women is a dangerous illusion.

As tw are male bodied they come under male stats on the risk posed to women. The onus is on you to prove otherwise. The minimal research there is suggests they pose the same risk. Until you prove otherwise that’s the bench mark.

There may well be misogynist gay men but they are not likely to sexually assault women at the same rate as straight men. I've seen studies ranging from about 10% to 40% so the number is probably somewhere in the middle. In addition studies have shown 10-15% of trans women are asexual. On top of this many trans women take the exact same drugs which have been used to chemically castrate sex offender, and many trans women don't even have a penis. So given all that then it seems highly unlikely trans women represent the same sexual threat to women as male identified men.

@Toscanello the trouble is, even if separate cubicles are provided there's also an open space (i'm thinking of eg a swimming pool changing room) where that people come into after changing into swimming stuff and often has benches for people to use at busy times when all the cubicles are taken.

Absolutely, most transwomen will want to change privately, the issue here (and the basis of the question) is those transwomen who still have a penis (the majority do) and those men who aren't trans but might take advantage of a policy of 'self-id' to access the facility. Both might have a fetish around exposing themselves to women/girls.

The only real problem I have is sport. Women can't compete against someone born male. They just can't. What are they supposed to do?

This is really interesting as it seems to be where a lot of people draw the line who are otherwise relaxed about the inclusion of transwomen into female-only spaces.

If you are arguing that there is a subcategory of males to whom this does not apply, you have to provide the evidence for this assertion.

So are you claming gay men represent the same threat to women as straight men? That we should assume this to be the case until proven otherwise. What about trans women post surgery? Are they as likely to be a rapist as a straight man even though it would be legally impossible for them to rape anyone? I don't think it's me having a logic fail.

jj so, if your argument is that transwomen are less likely to be violent aggressors than other male people, go ahead & work on that. We are all ears.

However, it's irrelevant in terms of women wanting to keep female spaces female.

Still saying NO. Still unsurprised by the reaction.

but now that the trans umbrella encompasses a whole range of people who are neither transsexual nor suffer from gender dysphoria, the overall percentage of homosexual transsexuals is even smaller.

Indeed it does, it includes trans men, and non binary people who may have been born physically female for a start. There is a difference between an umbrella term for everyone who experiences gender discordance of some kind and a trans woman who is just one of the many different types of people in that group.

JJ, the problem is that they’re/you’re male.

Not that they’re/you’re trans, gay, picked on, whatever - just that you’re male. And rather a lot of women want female-only facilities and sports. Why shouldn’t we have them?

@CorvusPurpureus

jj so, if your argument is that transwomen are less likely to be violent aggressors than other male people, go ahead & work on that. We are all ears.

However, it's irrelevant in terms of women wanting to keep female spaces female.

Still saying NO. Still unsurprised by the reaction.

That's not how society works though is it. Consent is gained via the democractic process. The GRA and EA were introduced within that process. Biden was elected by that process. So as far as consent can be established by a democracy it has been granted. Clearly very many women do not feel like you or Biden wouldn't have got near the Whitehouse.

‘Many trans women don’t have a penis’

The majority of info on this suggests most have a penis and plenty have ones that work.

However, neither is required to sexually assault women, because it isn’t about sex it’s about power and dominance and males entitlement to women’s bodies.

Physical assault is just as high a risk. As is verbal violence. Sexual harassment without actual assualt. Humiliation and control. Collanising our safe space, our dignity, our privacy. All come down to power the same way sexual assualt does. None actually require a penis working or otherwise. They require misogyny, entitlement and physical dominance. All of which all male bodied people have, straight gay trans nb asexual.

As the vast majority of transwomen retain their male genitalia and are just as likely to be attracted to the opposite sex as any other male I think the likelihood of them being a threat to women is as great as any other male. As to the tiny minority chemically castrated, well they will still be considerably higher and stronger than any female so the potential for sexual assault if not actual rape remains.

Higher? I meant bigger

I think it's pretty blatantly obvious tbh

It isn't.

and so the onus is on those who claim it isn't to prove otherwise

It isn't.