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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

999 replies

Langrycleg · 01/02/2021 10:56

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
NiceGerbil · 02/02/2021 22:06

There was a thread on here about how PPS guns comment was fucking stupid though.

I didn't post as I'm not that interested.

She has some very dodgy views in general.
She has done some inspired stuff to raise the profile of what is happening to women's language and laws etc

There are a tiny handful of women who are always raised around this. Trying to shame women for being worried and angry and trying desperately to put the brakes on before even more is gone. Most women who believe that sex is real and don't want anyone born a chap in their sports prisons etc are not politically active etc. They just really fucking worried.

SqueakyCarrots · 02/02/2021 22:06

Ah ok, poise damn you woman for provoking violent men with guns. It’s all your fault woman, you shouldn’t set them off, woman up and take all the blame.

And damn the women of mn. Haven’t we learned yet we must exist only to police other women’s voices. Woman up and control other women’s sarcasm. Jump to it now, before someone deliberately misunderstands it.

NiceGerbil · 02/02/2021 22:06

JJ did you really say upthread that you hadn't seen any interest or concern about Karen white on here or did I misunderstand you?

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 02/02/2021 22:06

@midgedude

Well I don't keep up with the activists , although winding up right wingers with guns sounds ok by me.

Unless the term winding up means something different to you?

jj means winding them up to attack

Not winding them up in a taking the piss way

NotBadConsidering · 02/02/2021 22:07

jj you seem to be holding on to the bullying you received at the hands of school girls and projecting your resentment onto any other women you come across at this stage of your life. It doesn’t seem healthy and is a similar theme seen in incel posts. I hope you can get some support for this.

Datun · 02/02/2021 22:11

Nothing but attack, and now you're somehow recasting feminists as your high-school bullies? That's quite telling. It's also a fantasy. And, as I said, highly offensive.

The list of things jj has called us just gets longer and longer.

Although revenge porn advocates was a high light.

334bu · 02/02/2021 22:13

**No. Do you believe no transperson would ever harm anyone?

No and I've never said that have I? In fact I have repeatedly condemned misogynist and violent language being used against women in the name of trans rights.**

But you will never admit that transwomen are just as likely to be violent towards women as any other members of the male sex class.

NiceGerbil · 02/02/2021 22:19

The thing is that the women who think that humans can't change sex, who know that through history and now all over the world women have been oppressed because of their sex. Or who maybe have had medical experiences that are utterly related to their sex. The ones who know how creepy men can be, and that would be most of us. The ones who just don't want anyone male in legally or traditionally or specifically female spaces. Or who don't appreciate being called an ovulator or a menstruator (terms which don't even make sense when it comes to the stop start nature of these things). They are just ordinary women who understandably have had enough.

To say they are right wing bigots, homophobes, etc etc. It doesn't really work. Because they know they aren't. They know that sex is a thing. And they see what's happening and think FFS.

That's why it had to be no debate etc.

The belief of a soul, an innate womanness or manness, is ????. Loads of people simply do not have that as a major or even minor part of their identity. Trans people do, obviously. Gender (sex) dysphoria must be terribly hard. Accommodations were made by women.

But so many men are creepy. So many are dodgy. So many are 'normal' but enjoy indulging in all sorts of shit male bonding pack behaviour.

Men have no fucking idea about this- not because we don't go on about it but because they don't listen, they're not interested and they don't care.

All of this is linked. Many women just get that. And are worried.

And are told to shut the fuck up about their concerns.

jj1968 · 02/02/2021 22:19

@NiceGerbil

JJ did you really say upthread that you hadn't seen any interest or concern about Karen white on here or did I misunderstand you?
No I didn't say that. I'm well aware there were concerns about Karen White on here, I said there didn't seem to be a similar level of concern about male identified male prison officers who have committed horrifying attacks.
334bu · 02/02/2021 22:23

But you will never admit that transwomen are just as likely to be violent towards women as any other members of the male sex class

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 02/02/2021 22:30

Most of society is 'gender critical'. Very very few people believe that humans can literally change sex. Or that stating you feel like a man or woman inside makes it so.

A lot of people are polite though. And also scared to talk about it.

Very good point, NiceGerbil. It’s very difficult to talk about unless you know someone is already receptive, especially in some settings. It’s also difficult because it’s so hard to talk about it in a rational way - simply because people who aren’t up to speed with it all will find it hard to believe what you tell them. I know I didn’t when I first came across it all on an AIBU thread.

How many people, even now, know that the vast majority of “transwomen” retain their male genitalia? (How many even know that “transwoman” even refers to a person of the male sex? Some think it’s a biologically female trans person.)

How many know that you can get a new, legally falsified birth certificate as a result of the GRA?

Or that a very high number of biologically male trans people are sexually attracted to females, the same females they are demanding the right to share communal changing rooms and showers with?

How many know about the medicalisation of children - the fact that even though a woman in her 20’s can’t get sterilised and a woman in her 30’s with crippling endometriosis can’t get a hysterectomy on the NHS in case they change their mind about wanting (more) children, up till very recently teenagers or even girls as young as 9 or 10 could be put on a medical pathway that would effectively sterilise them?

And that that only changed because of a group of brave individuals, including one detransitioned young woman and a worried parent, crowdfunded for a judicial review? Not because of any monitoring or concerns raised by those who were supposed to be responsible for these children within our state funded healthcare system.

How many people know anything about the levels of institutional capture - the way the major political parties, the police, the CPS, the BBC, the media, academia, schools, the NHS, the BMA, the RCN, and countless massive corporations, businesses and shops all over the UK have been “Stonewalled” and are busily promoting and applying transactivist ideology?

How many know that the concept of the “male lesbian”, complete with penis, is no longer a sexist bad joke from the 70’s but something that progressive, liberal minded people are supposed to take seriously, and that lesbians themselves - especially young lesbians - can be ostracised from their own communities for not going along with?

That’s before you’ve even got near the subjects of sport, prisons, hospital wards, thoughtcrime, “misgendering” as “hate speech” and all the rest. And the hostile takeover of feminism itself. And the irony of an ideology that promotes the destruction of women’s and girls’ boundaries, that unilaterally takes away their right of consent, being hailed as actually desirable and progressive in this post #metoo age.

How many people in the UK - especially women, many of whom are just too damn busy juggling work, wifework, children, other caring responsibilities, and trying to have some semblance of a life of their own to delve into all this - actually have any idea about all of this? And how do you start that conversation?

There was a deliberate strategy of pushing this through on the quiet, or tacked onto gay rights, so that people wouldn’t know all this.

There’s still a lot of catching up to do for a lot of people. And the more sunlight there is on it all, the more gender critical people there will be.

NiceGerbil · 02/02/2021 22:34

And the many orgs who promote twaw etc, are totally hypocritical

The BBC, the un etc.

On the one hand have articles in some places, women's health pages or trans rights etc. Saying menstruators, people who ovulate etc. (Never ejaculators or people who get erections).

Then they will write articles about other countries, or war, or economics. And say women and girls xyz. Men xyz. And they clearly mean the sex. Women in USA have worst maternal mortality in developed world. That sort of thing.

They DO NOT put their money where their mouth is. They do not put on BBC headlines. Eg mass rape of vagina owners of all ages in X war zone.

Why don't they? JJ. Why don't they.

SqueakyCarrots · 02/02/2021 22:37

To be able to discuss male prison officers attacking female prisoners we first have to have recognised definitions of male and female. Self id removes these and any chance we could ever have to discuss this issue. So if you supposedly care about this so much then stop taking our language from us.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 02/02/2021 22:37

I was bullied at school for years because I was one of two children in a class of thirty who had to wear spectacles. (It was a long time ago, ok? Either fewer children needed them then, or fewer were diagnosed as needing them.)

My spectacles were regularly broken by "accident", leaving me to grope my way around and be in trouble because I couldn't read the blackboard until a new pair arrived. After the two pairs a year that were free from the NHS, I had to pay for them out of my pocket-money.

You know what? I grew up, and I got over it.

jj1968 · 02/02/2021 22:37

We don’t have the luxury of waiting for other gc women who also tick every other box of what we care about, we don’t have that time because this isn’t a cause for us, this is our entire existence. Redefine the legal definition of woman and all sex based rights protections are gone.

Do you really believe that? Do you honestly think your life will even change? Have all women's rights disappeared in Ireland, New York and Denmark? I think this is complete hyperbole. Maternity pay won't disappear if trans people are recognised as women - which in fact they have been for most purposes for many years. Women's healthcare won't disappear. Reproductive healthcare won't disappear. The biggest threat to gender pay gap reporting is actually currently Liz Truss, not the 0.3% of women who are trans. Nothing will change from how things are now. You might occassionally bump into a trans woman in the toilets, but you might now. There might have to be some compromises on both sides as sport finds ways to manage trans inclusion, but there's no way trans women will ever dominate women's sport - there isn't enough of them for a start. I get that you might perceive that this is just another shitty thing men are doing to women, I do understand that, but men have actually been pretty shitty to trans women as well. There isn't some desperate plot to erase women and conquer women's spaces, just people trying to get by, and be happy and survive in a hostile world. There has been no great tiupping point when women's rights will collapse, most of the things you are most terrified of actually happened years ago and you didn't notice. And I swear, if women are pushed out of sports, if women's toilets end up full of rapey men, if the womens refuge sector starts reporting significant problems with trans inclusion, if diversity policies lead to boardrooms becoming half men/half trans women then I've got your back - I will join your fight as I'm sure would many other trans people. But I really don't believe any of that will happen. It hasn't happened where exactly the things your most concerned about have already happened such as most of the USA.

jj1968 · 02/02/2021 22:38

@334bu

But you will never admit that transwomen are just as likely to be violent towards women as any other members of the male sex class
Because I don't believe it's true that why.
AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 02/02/2021 22:40

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

I was bullied at school for years because I was one of two children in a class of thirty who had to wear spectacles. (It was a long time ago, ok? Either fewer children needed them then, or fewer were diagnosed as needing them.)

My spectacles were regularly broken by "accident", leaving me to grope my way around and be in trouble because I couldn't read the blackboard until a new pair arrived. After the two pairs a year that were free from the NHS, I had to pay for them out of my pocket-money.

You know what? I grew up, and I got over it.

Missed out the song:
334bu · 02/02/2021 22:42

have all women's rights disappeared in Ireland,

Well I wouldnt want to be in Limerick Prison just now with the violent transwomen prisoners that are there just now.

NiceGerbil · 02/02/2021 22:44

JJ I know this is really important to you. Obviously. You have been on these threads over and over for ages.

It's obviously very personal to you. Like a pp I wonder if you are transposing the faces and attitudes of your school bullies onto the women here?

And I wonder why you percevere? I mean it must be very upsetting. Like me going onto an incel site or a fundamental religion site who believed that women are lesser.

I wish you nor any person, at all tbh, harm. I don't hate anyone. At all. But you would read my posts and think I want to hurt you in all sorts of ways.

What are you getting out of this?

I remember when I had serious peri natal depression which focussed on a certain thing, I would be drawn to threads on here that I knew really would really upset me.

Now I'm not saying you're unhappy or depressed or whatever don't get me wrong.

But. Why? Do you think you are going to change minds? Here for the lurkers?

I'm genuinely interested and hope you are ok (not implying you're struggling with mh or anything!). Just I don't get it.

334bu · 02/02/2021 22:45

**But you will never admit that transwomen are just as likely to be violent towards women as any other members of the male sex class

Because I don't believe it's true that why.**

Any evidence for this belief? Crime statistics. M OJ statistics on prisoners offending. Research peer reviewed papers? Anything?

SqueakyCarrots · 02/02/2021 22:46

There most definitely do not need to be compromised on ‘both sides’.

Women have already given way a huge amount and all it’s done is made us more of a target.

This is a women’s rights issue and women do not need to compromise on our legal rights protections. Feminism is allowed to centre females and doesn’t have to comprise or apologise for that anymore than Marxists have to move over and welcome any capitalist who claims to be a real communist too.

Women should never compromise on women’s rights ever, give an inch and trans activists have taken 50 million miles of my daughters legal rights. It’s not yours to take and there’s no compromise on that anymore than there’s compromise when it comes to safe guarding.

It’s like you keep saying ‘be nice and share’ and you simply don’t get or don’t care that women do not share women’s rights with anyone whose not a women.

Thewithesarehere · 02/02/2021 22:46

There might have to be some compromises on both sides as sport finds ways to manage trans inclusion, but there's no way trans women will ever dominate women's sport - there isn't enough of them for a start.

What kind of compromises @jj1968?
How do you think this will be resolved in sports?

NiceGerbil · 02/02/2021 22:48

Do you ever go to other sites that are ??? about this, or outright hostile, but are male dominated?

(Like every single fucking bit of the internet except here).

CharlieParley · 02/02/2021 22:50

No and I've never said that have I? In fact I have repeatedly condemned misogynist and violent language being used against women in the name of trans rights. Some trans people, although more often male trans allies, have acted like complete arseholes in this debate. I'm not afraid to say that.

I can't recall seeing that, and I don't honestly expect you to take responsibility for people you've never met and aren't in a position to control. All we can reasonably do in this debate is to engage with civility and try to take in the points others make. By all means if you're directly affiliated with someone or an organisation, call them out (that is tell them what they're doing is wrong, not us). But that's just my view, I'm sure others disagree.

Yet I've rarely seen anyone from the GC side, with a couple of high profile notable exceptions, who is prepared to condemn anything said or done in the name of gender critical activism. Most of you all couldn't even bring yourselves to condemn Posie Parker for winding up right wing men with guns just days after an attempted armed coup by the same political faction.

Disingenuous again. Every single time PP does something - every single time - it gets debated here with just as many posters condemning whatever she said as posters defending her or stating that she's not our boss and we have no control over her. This is what I mean by disingenuous. You've been on plenty of those threads. You know this.

And I would ask you to be more specific here. The "GC side" as you call it is not synonymous with women's rights campaigners. As many polls have shown, the vast majority of people does not believe in the doctrine of gender identity. If you're definition of GC equals "does not believe TWAW", then that encompasses the entire political spectrum, cultural backgrounds, ages, abilities, religious affiliations and none.

As you are always so keen to point out, feminism is also not a mainstream view. It's not even a mainstream view among women. (Polling in 2019 showed 1 in 3 UK women called themselves feminists.)

So when you say "gender critical activism", what are you referring to?

Toscanello · 02/02/2021 22:51

I am very late to comment so apologies if this has been said before. I'm not too bothered about changing rooms, toilets etc if you have individual spaces. I'm sure most transwomen or men would prefer privacy, like me.

The only real problem I have is sport. Women can't compete against someone born male. They just can't. What are they supposed to do?

I'll be deleted probably but if you are a transwoman and you really do have the feelings of a woman born that way you would get this. You would understand how utterly unfair it is that women are now pitched against biological men in sport.