That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

[Langrycleg]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

Transphobic people say they just want us to accept ourselves as we are but that’s a lie. They want us to reject who we are and accept their version of us.

I think that this is a good starting point for the open discussion on transphobia.

The questions that arise from this statement is 'how far does society need to make significant changes to allow a person to be able to live their version of themselves'?

From what I continually read, many people posting on this board are quite willing to support someone's need to do this until the conflicts start. I believe that many people who believe there are conflicts are willing to discuss resolution, or at least were until they were abused for believing they even exist.

But the same could be said if this re definition of the word woman?

We live now in.a society where the word is offensive if used to describe the experiences or biological functions of women who weren't born male. We have been re defined against our consent ri he a subset of our own sex class.

Why is one deemed acceptable and the other a problem?

I agree. I think it just demonstrates how little women count.

@lifeturnsonadime

The way that trans people feel the world treat them is very very similar to the way that many autistic people feel neurotypicals treat them which is very interesting.

Oh, it's very similar. The key difference you will find, ime around young transpeople and talking to their parents over the last 10-15, and I know this is a truscum perspective, but I suspect a lot of it is rooted in deep childhood trauma. I am convinced it is in our case, and most every other kid I know the parents and history of has gone at least one event that would be deeply traumatizing to a child.

Fastedbrownie

Thank you for continuing to answer.

I don't abuse people simply for feeling the way they do about their identity. I am sympathetic. I do have my boundaries and will campaign to protect them. I do speak up for women and girls. I do believe that feminism is simply the rights movement for women and girls and needs to centre our needs rather than those of other groups, just as the trans rights movement is for trans people, and centres them, quite rightly

Yes my boundries are the same really. I will be friendly and polite and extend common courtesy.

I won't dismiss what I see and what I know and be told what to think.or say. Eveb on these threads where others say differently they all eventually fall into the "transphobic " category because they eventually have to acknowledge biology. Even dismissing yaniv will get you called a bigot and a transphobe.

So I do have to ask.why even take it half that far. Even the dr got told he was transphobic for not wanting to date a man with a vagina . So having racked up hundreds if complaints and putting his job on the line fighting the cause he still got labelled a bigot.

At some point peole have to take responsibility for themselves. It's OK to say no. People need help themselves to accept personal boundries not encouraged to thing boundries are a personal attack.

I suspect a lot of it is rooted in deep childhood trauma. I am convinced it is in our case, and most every other kid I know the parents and history of has gone at least one event that would be deeply traumatizing to a child.

That's very sad.

truscum This is truly a vile term.

Does anyone know who first came up with the truscum term? I am assuming when the definition of transgender was broadened to include people who didn't have surgery?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The way that trans people feel the world treat them is very very similar to the way that many autistic people feel neurotypicals treat them which is very interesting.

Especially when there appears to be a correlation with ASD in young patients currently seeking treatment.

And the sad thing there is both JJ and Fasted strongly suggest that transitioning won't resolve the problem, although there is probably a more readily identifiable 'community' to step into which will no doubt appeal to some who struggle with fitting in in the wider community.

It's very sad, I see real parallels between the way Fasted describes her SD and my children who are autistic in terms of their experiences in a world where they don't fit in. Autistic children don't get access to the mental health provision they need and the world will not change for them. No one is campaigning for it to either, at least not in the same way.

And I was reluctant to put it in these words yesterday, but as someone who also has an autistic siblings, the 'tantrums'* had when told to do something like use the male toilets is very reminiscent of an autistic meltdown. It perhaps better articulated and not as loud/physical, but it's going to ruin your entire outing in the same way, and even once you give in (because you will, there's no other choice) the damage is already done. The mood will not return to what it had been before likely for the remainder of the day).

*as usual, I'm talking about say ages 12-13 here. Things are very different these days.

sorry I think we cross posted Fasted I'm am very sorry that your sd has faced trauma, .

I do agree that parents will move the world to make their children happier. I removed my eldest from the school system 4 years ago to the horror of most of my family and friends because it was literally killing him. He was suicidal.

He spends most of his time in the house. He wants to fit in but doesn't really know how to.

It is very very sad. I just have to hope one day that he will find his place but sadly he gets next to no help because CAMHS don't help children on the autism spectrum in my area. We're on our own.

Any way i'll shut up about it now as it is a derail.

Fastedbrownie

It's very interesting to listen to your experience. And I don't think anyone is surprised by it. As Stephanie Davis Arai says, past trauma is a prominent characteristic in children who identify as trans. Add same-sex attraction and autism, and it virtually covers all the causes in her experience

What is startlingly obvious, though, is that whatever your child is going through, they are not the opposite sex. And apart from superficially, nor are they experiencing life as the opposite sex.

They may get called Miss, or ma'am and random people may assume they're female, but that's not being female.

The reason it's important is because it's actually being female that has impacted women's lives. Whether it's to do with something specifically based on biology like, pregnancy, rape, etc, or it's the way they are treated.

Whatever your step child experiences, it's not what women experience. For instance, they are feted, as you say. But it's for being a male individual who identifies as a woman. They maintain a social circle of people who all know. That's not an experience of a woman. But they need the superficial manifestations of females to carry it off, as it were.

I know it is desperately important to them. But it is very detrimental to women as a sex.

The actual tricky business of being a woman is getting relegated, as ever, to something unimportant. Even unimportant to actually being one!

You have described, very eloquently, your experience. And you certainly have my sympathy. None of this is easy.

As more is understood about the reasons children want to transition, the causes will be addressed. Certainly, the high number of children on the spectrum is now raising alarms. As is the homophobia.

Schools are being challenged, which will make a massive difference.

And the separate, but connected issue of our porn soaked youth, needs to be on the agenda too. A list of reasons why girls don't want to enter womanhood is where that will be revealed.

I will always profoundly disagree with the ideology as regressive and highly sexist, but it does not stop me wishing strength and clarity for you both.

Brilliant post Datun.

I'm always suspicious of these "oh we're banned for x,y,z"

It's like "they don't want you to see this" stuff.

Or like MTG standing in congress speaking to the world wearing a mask saying "censored"

Always more to the story.

@Datun - I could not agree more with what you have just said. It is also imperative that pressure for the research into what is going on in youth culture is kept up. Our young people deserve support and understanding, and guideance. A life of medicalisation, and surgery, and going to hospital one's whole life is surely surely a last resort. For those who have taken this route already, they need support and empathy, but that is not a reason not to present reality to those who have not yet done that.

I appreciate you taking the time to share your experience, FastedBrownie and that you aren't denying the difficult issues that remain to defend the difficult decisions made in the past.

And while we may disagree on a number of points, on one I do agree with you - not to make ideological statements, not to draw a line in the sand when that would cause a potentially irreparable rift, because as a parent you cannot support and protect your child, if your child cuts you out of their life. And that you would rather be there than not. Whether the child in question is yours by blood or marriage.

There is one thing I would hope for in your situation - since you mention there is continuing vulnerability around acceptance and rejection - is that a parent instils in their child the knowledge that while transphobia does exist, the vast majority of people who reject the claim that males can become female and females become male do not do so out of ignorance, bigotry or hate. They do not - as I've seen on far too many Tumblr posts - want people who identify as trans dead. For me this is one of the most shocking differences between the gay community and the trans community. That so many older people who identify as trans perpetuate this view, when it isn't just a lie but actively harmful to newcomers.

That doesn't require you taking any stance that is counter to maintaining trust with your child, or even imply any disagreement with the doctrine of gender identity.

Always more to the story.

Not always, no. Sometimes it is just a targeted campaign against women.

@MintyMabel

I'm always suspicious of these "oh we're banned for x,y,z"

It's like "they don't want you to see this" stuff.

Or like MTG standing in congress speaking to the world wearing a mask saying "censored"

Always more to the story.

Exactly

I will always profoundly disagree with the ideology as regressive and highly sexist, but it does not stop me wishing strength and clarity for you both.

Same for me.

Datun
The reason it's important is because it's actually being female that has impacted women's lives. Whether it's to do with something specifically based on biology like, pregnancy, rape, etc, or it's the way they are treated.

Does anyone happen to have a link to the talk given by a transwoman in which she said that the way she was treated by an airline as a woman was a complete shock to her because she had been used to being treated as a man before she transitioned, and was suddenly of lesser importance in their eyes simply because she was female?

This would be something unknown to anyone who transitioned immediately on reaching the age at which it was legal, because they wouldn't have had the experience in such situations of effortless-to-them superiority just because of being an adult human male.

If it’s a choice between gender neutral toilets for all (no single sex spaces at all) and sharing the women’s loos with transwomen (who are, after all, an extremely small group) I would definitely prefer the latter.

but this isn't really the deal on offer though unfortunately Buddy. Women are being asked to accept any male person who decides that for whatever reason they are entitled to use single sex female spaces. So that includes the 'quiet passing transsexual who will do no harm' AND any predatory male who chooses (remember it is transphobic to discriminate based on how male or female the person appears - many transwomen choose 'not to transition their appearance' so appear fully male.

We may not have realised it until it is under threat but as a society we have had quite a strong social contract that means that all males are excluded from single sex female spaces. My husband and son would not dream of going into the ladies toilets. Most men would not dream of going into the ladies toilets.

Some men may have gone into the ladies toilets unspotted and attacked a woman - bad things do happen. Other men have attempted to go into the ladies toilets and been spotted and called out and an attack prevented (and hopefully the guy arrested).

The proposal here is to make it easier for any chancer predatory male to go into the ladies toilets unchallenged and do bad things. That cannot be a good thing.

Do you remember Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman? the two little girls murdered by Ian Huntley? In direct response to that horrendous situation the government introduced what is now the DBS checking system (which ironically a transgender judge is now attempting to undermine but that's another story).

As a society we saw a bad thing happen and decided it was important to try and prevent it happening again.

Now, in Scotland, the 10 year old girl who was followed into the ladies toilets by a male-bodied transgender person who was already known for sex offences and being escorted by a social worker (presumably for that reason) . The social worker decided it was acceptable for this person to go into an enclosed space and gain the ability to sexually assault that little girl at knifepoint.

Now, as a society many are not looking at that bad thing done by Katie Dolotowski (who was also placed into a women's refuge and caused major problems for the actual women there) and saying 'we must try and prevent that happening again' - the Scottish government are actively trying to make it much easier for that bad thing to happen again and again.

That surely can't be right??

For balance perhaps now's a good time to post this from a former high profile detransitioner who bought into gender critical ideology and here reveals the damage it did: medium.com/an-injustice/detransition-as-conversion-therapy-a-survivor-speaks-out-7abd4a9782fa

Thank you for sharing this article, jj1968. It was very interesting to read. I would note the following points in response: the description of radical feminism (not gender critical ideology) as conversion therapy is not just hyperbole but misapplied.

The writer, Ky, explains having doubts about identifying as trans and wishing to be known as "a genderqueer female person" before finally detransitioning to try to live as a butch lesbian. This came from within, and no pressure is claimed to have been experienced by Ky.

Who then joins a community of detransitioned women and re-identified women, a community heavily influenced by radical feminist and lesbian separatist theory and culture. Research into communities based on fringe ideologies such as lesbian separatism has shown that this can mean experiencing tremendous psychological pressure to conform to the group mentality. And Ky didn't simply join a community of radical feminists and lesbian separatists but one of women who all experienced severe identity disturbances of their own. Again, we know from research that this is not a healthy environment for those with mental health issues. Especially not if it comes with such extreme pressure to conform as detailed here.

I'm not surprised that someone who describes having such an unstable sense of self and who experiences such severe emotional dysregulation would seek solace by moving from one ideologically bound group to another, even if these groups occupy opposing positions. Or that Ky felt happiest immersed in a group of people with the same intense focus on identity. Or that Ky became one of its fiercest champions.

But this is not gender critical ideology. It's not even radical feminism as most radical feminists understand it.

I wish Ky well and can't help but wonder if non-binary identities had been more popular earlier whether Ky would have struggled quite so much.

Now, in Scotland, the 10 year old girl who was followed into the ladies toilets by a male-bodied transgender person who was already known for sex offences and being escorted by a social worker (presumably for that reason) . The social worker decided it was acceptable for this person to go into an enclosed space and gain the ability to sexually assault that little girl at knifepoint.

That jj handwaved away as "one instance".

And Ky didn't simply join a community of radical feminists and lesbian separatists but one of women who all experienced severe identity disturbances of their own. Again, we know from research that this is not a healthy environment for those with mental health issues. Especially not if it comes with such extreme pressure to conform as detailed here.

Yes that's an excellent point.

Research shows that most people detransition due to lack of support, rejection and transphobia and many go on to retransition when they are in a safer space. I think it's important when discussing this subject that people are aware of that.

It doesn't show that at all. There is a (self-selected) survey of detransitioned women that shows transphobia was a reason for a minority, and we have anecdotal evidence collected over the last ten years or so that it was one reason for a number of individuals who decided to detransition, but I do recall just as much anecdotal evidence of detransitioners who state they did so because they were promised transitioning would solve their problems but found it didn't.

We actually have no robust research into detransitioners, and the few who have attempted to research the issue have faced such severe resistance from trans rights activists that so far this is not happening at the scale we need it to be.

We don't even have robust research into the affirmation model for children diagnosed with dysphoria, because there's huge resistance to applying the same safeguards to children who identify as trans as we typically apply to all other children.

I do not doubt jj1968 that transphobia will be a factor for many who decide to detransition and that it will be the main factor for some. But so far we do not have the research to confirm or deny this claim.