That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

[Langrycleg]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

@Fastedbrownie

Should say, even if she decided to de-transition tomorrow, it would be a difficult road. She has a female pitched voice, natural breasts etc, that simply stopping hormones wouldn't necessarily reverse.

You don’t hear much of detransitioning MTFTM really do you? But I imagine reintroduction of testosterone would deepen the voice quickly. The breast tissue issue: would a detransitioned male be able to get a mastectomy as easily as a FTM is able to in some places? Would Dr Miles Berry be so quick to champion such a patient like he does here?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4140479-Grateful-child-draws-a-picture-to-thank-surgeon-for-mastectomy-MNHQ-content-warning-for-upsetting-image

Instinctively I think such a patient would find it difficult to get such treatments and people like Dr Berry wouldn’t post about it on social media.

Yanbu

There are a couple of detransitioned MTFTM on youtube. It seems like testosterone works very quickly to re-masculinise the body when it is reintroduced and female hormones stopped.
Its a bit of a bug bear also that it's called hormone replacement therapy in the first place - its technically cross sex hormones, as they are not 'replacing' anything (hormones that don't naturally exist in the body).
Anyway, the real damage seems to come from natural females who take testosterone and then want to detransition. Testosterone causes irreversible body changes, enlargening of the larynx and therefore a permanently deeper voice, structural changes to the face and body, hair loss, hirsutism etc. These are all much more problematic for someone now wishing to present as female. Its why in most instances FTM can pass much more easily than MTF.

Some people on Twitter seem to revel in the perceived offence. If they didn’t like what Helen was tweeting, the block and mute facility can be used.

Yes. This was an option that all those stating she was offensive for the number of times she asked the question, or the number of times she said the word 'penis'. And did not seem to be done by those who are prominent TRAs. And Helen was not the one making a big deal out of using the word penis. Other people were. If the word is part of a legitimate question and the question is asked of many individual people, of course the word is going to appear in her time line a great deal.

She also was not making judgement on any one having a penis or expressing a fascination with any person's penis. Although, that is exactly what activists claimed or inferred that she did.

Feminists are generally asking for a 'third space', Buddy, in addition to single sex spaces. However this is not generally accepted by those insisting that males should be accepted into female spaces.

Article on m-f-m detransitioners.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gender-reversal-surgery-demand-rise-assignment-men-women-trans-a7980416.html

There was also a male who had PTSD, and spoke very movingly of how the trauma of his son's death had caused PTSD which he thought would be resolved by transitioning. (It wasn't, and he detransitioned, but some of the effects are permanent.) Apologies, I can't remember his name.

It is interesting that all four threads have had similar poll results.

Wonder if those who continue to claim that people who would answer no to this question are a minority, an echo chamber, and not representative of women in this country, will ever accept that they are in fact talking about their own opinion.

Each poll I have seen that is direct in its approach of asking the question about males who still have their penises, goes the same way. It is delusional to think that women as a group welcome these changes when that fact is made clear.

Another m-f-m detransitioner. Sad stories.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2921528/The-man-s-TWO-sex-changes-Incredible-story-Walt-Laura-REVERSED-operation-believes-surgeons-quick-operate.html

@ArabellaScott

Article on m-f-m detransitioners.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gender-reversal-surgery-demand-rise-assignment-men-women-trans-a7980416.html

There was also a male who had PTSD, and spoke very movingly of how the trauma of his son's death had caused PTSD which he thought would be resolved by transitioning. (It wasn't, and he detransitioned, but some of the effects are permanent.) Apologies, I can't remember his name.

It was this guy, Richard Hoskins, you reminded me.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7876747/Academic-gruelling-sex-swap-surgery-changed-mind-minute.html

@ArabellaScott

Article on m-f-m detransitioners.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gender-reversal-surgery-demand-rise-assignment-men-women-trans-a7980416.html

There was also a male who had PTSD, and spoke very movingly of how the trauma of his son's death had caused PTSD which he thought would be resolved by transitioning. (It wasn't, and he detransitioned, but some of the effects are permanent.) Apologies, I can't remember his name.

For balance perhaps now's a good time to post this from a former high profile detransitioner who bought into gender critical ideology and here reveals the damage it did: medium.com/an-injustice/detransition-as-conversion-therapy-a-survivor-speaks-out-7abd4a9782fa

They are far from the only one. I'd urge any parent of a trans child to read it.

They are far from the only one. I'd urge any parent of a trans child to read it.

How many are there? Is this a number you consider significant jj? I just want some clarification, so when people point out to you again the number of detransitioners you can’t dismiss their number as insignificant, like you have done in the past.

To me that article just highlights how no one should be physically altering their bodies when their identity is capable of such flux, particularly children who are unable to fully understand and consent, and no one should seek answers for their own identity on the internet.

Thanks, NotBad.

@Buddytheelf85

I’ve come to this discussion very very late so please forgive me if I expose myself as a complete idiot.

But I find the idea of gender neutral toilets for all very frightening. The thought of using gender neutral toilets late at night at a bus station is terrifying. Like a lot of women, I’m very scared of strange men. I don’t think many people would say that’s an irrational fear.

I actually discussed this with a friend who is a trans rights activist and her answer was ‘but there are cubicles in gender neutral loos’. Oh great so I can lock myself away from the rapist, thanks.

If it’s a choice between gender neutral toilets for all (no single sex spaces at all) and sharing the women’s loos with transwomen (who are, after all, an extremely small group) I would definitely prefer the latter.

It is a long thread, as are the previous related threads. I do think that if you can find time to read at least this one, you will realise that you have missed the point around third spaces. What women ( the xx kind) would like are male only, female only, mixed for anybody. Not mixed for everybody as the only option.

That is an interesting read j j. Thanks for posting it. And we should all be reading it regardless of if we are a parent or not.

We should be reading and learning from every single detransitioner. Yet, they are demonised by the activists and abused. Why is that?

They are far from the only one. It is also great to hear you acknowledge just how many detransitioners there are that are yet unheard from and uncounted. Or do you have some statistics for us? We also know that they are growing and are speaking despite years of being silenced (according to them recounting their experiences).

We are also waiting for the data for the millions of trans people you have told us exist. Usually you mention that to minimise the detransitioners.

It is also good to acknowledge the demographic that seems to be detransitioning, female transitioners.

And we are certainly looking forward to the research that will start to describe their experience now that it is no longer deemed transphobic as has been until recently. I am very sure that their experiences will ensure that better health options are offered to all sufferers of GD.

@NotBadConsidering

They are far from the only one. I'd urge any parent of a trans child to read it.

How many are there? Is this a number you consider significant jj? I just want some clarification, so when people point out to you again the number of detransitioners you can’t dismiss their number as insignificant, like you have done in the past.

To me that article just highlights how no one should be physically altering their bodies when their identity is capable of such flux, particularly children who are unable to fully understand and consent, and no one should seek answers for their own identity on the internet.

I'm not sure I recall ever talking about detransitioners on here before let alone dismissing them. I certainly don't think they are insignificant, I think they deserve every support, but is seems clear to me that the gender critical approach to detransition has caused harm to some which is why there is a growing number of them speaking against it.

This person is not a child, they eloquently and clearly explain their experiences and deserve to be part of the story. Research shows that most people detransition due to lack of support, rejection and transphobia and many go on to retransition when they are in a safer space. I think it's important when discussing this subject that people are aware of that.

Research shows that most people detransition due to lack of support, rejection and transphobia and many go on to retransition when they are in a safer space. I think it's important when discussing this subject that people are aware of that

Why is its someone else's fault though? I mean its not surprising that something reliant on others going along with it theb falls apart if said people don't want to go along with it.

A definition of transphobia here would be helpful. I mean there's no reason to he nasty to anyone but Do they mean they received actual abuse or that people simply believed in biology and drew boundries they were perfectly entitled to draw?

I think Ky defines transphobia very well here:

I don’t know why I feel like different genders but I know that I spent years trying to get rid of these feelings and it didn’t work. I tried because I really believed that was what I needed to do to heal from trauma. I was in pain and I wanted it to stop. I fell for a lie because I was desperate and I promoted the lie because it seemed to work. It worked until it didn’t. I can’t stop being trans and being trans was never the problem. My problem is that I live in a society that treats people like me like we’re crazy and broken. Transphobic people say they just want us to accept ourselves as we are but that’s a lie. They want us to reject who we are and accept their version of us. They want to destroy us from the inside out.

Research shows that most people detransition due to lack of support, rejection and transphobia and many go on to retransition when they are in a safer space. I think it's important when discussing this subject that people are aware of that.

And this is why I believe third spaces would be so very useful.

Gender critical women do not hate trans people contrary to what the TRAs would have the world believe.

We just need our own single sex spaces.

I strongly believe that trans people and women could be allies if this is acknowledged. Everyone can be safe.

We can't stop the hostility of aggressive males entirely , but it would surely be a step in the right direction as together we can work against aggressive males if our differences can be acknowledged.

But the same could be said if this re definition of the word woman?

We live now in.a society where the word is offensive if used to describe the experiences or biological functions of women who weren't born male. We have been re defined against our consent ri he a subset of our own sex class.

Why is one deemed acceptable and the other a problem?

It is a long thread, as are the previous related threads. I do think that if you can find time to read at least this one, you will realise that you have missed the point around third spaces. What women ( the xx kind) would like are male only, female only, mixed for anybody. Not mixed for everybody as the only option.

I have read it, and the point has been made several times that most places don’t have the space and/or resources to construct a third or fourth space. So pressuring for a third space is likely to result in a rise in places with only one space. Which I think would be a spectacular own goal. It seems to me that that is considerably more dangerous to women than the current position.

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence

The government’s call for evidence comments on it:

In recent years, there has been a trend towards the removal of well-established male-only/female-only spaces when premises are built or refurbished, and they have often been replaced with gender-neutral toilets. This places women at a significant disadvantage. While men can then use both cubicles and urinals, women can only use the former, and women also need safe spaces given their particular health and sanitary needs (for example, women who are menstruating, pregnant or at menopause, may need to use the toilet more often).

I do understand why women object to transwomen using their spaces but I just think it’s delusional and really dangerous to think that proposing a third space is the answer. It’s a slippery slope to mixed sex spaces as standard. Law of unintended consequences.

The way that trans people feel the world treat them is very very similar to the way that many autistic people feel neurotypicals treat them which is very interesting.

@Winesalot

there is still an enormous need for acceptance and hightened sensitivity to rejection, and what doesn't help with that and sort of enables it a lot is that in the 'woke' community she sort of gets treated like a beloved pampered pet who must be protected at all costs

Can I ask what you think will happen in a future where you SC will have to start acknowledging that the people around them will not cater to their needs, will not treat them like a special being? I know that they are getting therapy, has it started to tackle resilience in any meaningful way?

Do you think your SC will ever be able to see the extent of how every single person in their family, and with the family's assistance smooth their way as much as possible, so many others, has/have had to centre their needs?

I don't know the answer to these questions. At the end of the day, she has the money, and will have more so in the future, where realistically she will never need to put herself in a position where people invalidating her is a likely daily occurance unless she chooses it to be.

We know currently that her future goals are very people focused, especially within the lgbtq+ community and specifically further in the future when she's a 'real adult' being a specialist foster carer for kids who identify as lgbtq+ (which is a thing where we live). That's her goal for a family, so overall I think she's very happy in her little bubble and intends to stay there, and again, she's privileged enough to have the financial resources that she can.

As for our family, idk. There's a 5 and a bit year age gap between her and my eldest, and considering she essentially moved out of home at sixteen, I don't think there's been a huge level of centering to really reflect upon. My oldest daughter and sd get along really, really well. Sd took her and a few friends to a local wave pool over the weekend (permitted where we are), and they all think she is just the coolest person in the world. The woke gen continues, I guess.

Why is its someone else's fault though? I mean its not surprising that something reliant on others going along with it theb falls apart if said people don't want to go along with it.

A definition of transphobia here would be helpful. I mean there's no reason to he nasty to anyone but Do they mean they received actual abuse or that people simply believed in biology and drew boundries they were perfectly entitled to draw?

It's very easy to blame other people for your own mental health issues. As studies have shown, these are often not lessened by "transitioning". So I guess sometimes people then detransition, but often the mental health problems haven't magically gone away (unless possibly if they were hormonally linked to puberty) So occasionally they will transition again. Possibly in future they might even detransition again. I think there is someone who has done it twice. Sometimes these people have conditions which no amount of "acceptance" is ever going to address.

I'm never going to believe that it's possible for a male to be considered a woman, with all that comes with being female. It's a category error. I recognise that some people experience my lack of belief in their ideology as a personal affront, but there really isn't anything I can do about it.

I don't abuse people simply for feeling the way they do about their identity. I am sympathetic. I do have my boundaries and will campaign to protect them. I do speak up for women and girls. I do believe that feminism is simply the rights movement for women and girls and needs to centre our needs rather than those of other groups, just as the trans rights movement is for trans people, and centres them, quite rightly.

People never have resources for things until they do

I bet when female Loos were first raised, when disabled loos, child friendly loos, the same winge was made .

It's been managed at work, the local theatre had managed , it's not impossible

The way that trans people feel the world treat them is very very similar to the way that many autistic people feel neurotypicals treat them which is very interesting.

Especially when there appears to be a correlation with ASD in young patients currently seeking treatment.