That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

[Langrycleg]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

We actually have no robust research into detransitioners, and the few who have attempted to research the issue have faced such severe resistance from trans rights activists that so far this is not happening at the scale we need it to be.

Indeed. James Caspian (who was denied funding into de-transitioning) is taking his case as high up the food chain as possible, I believe.

I, personally, would welcome as many studies and research as possible into the reasons.

There is no doubt that some people feel very strongly about wanting to appear as the opposite sex. Finding out why, can only be a good thing.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Now, in Scotland, the 10 year old girl who was followed into the ladies toilets by a male-bodied transgender person who was already known for sex offences and being escorted by a social worker (presumably for that reason) . The social worker decided it was acceptable for this person to go into an enclosed space and gain the ability to sexually assault that little girl at knifepoint.

That jj handwaved away as "one instance".

I imagine once was enough for that little girl who now has to live with that trauma for life. And her father who, being a decent man was waiting outside, assuming that the normal social contract was operating and the person who went in was female (because he was a teenage boy who passed at a glance).

Actually that same person is actually responsible for a sex offence against a 12 year old (filming under the cubicle while she was in the toilet) so how many us too many??

Why are so many people so invested in making this type of preventable crime more likely?? If that social worker hadn’t allowed that person into the toilets those little girls would not have had to go through their ordeals. Katie would not have been able to sexually assault them at knifepoint in the middle of Morrison’s supermarket but having access to the toilets where a little girl was in her own gave him the perfect opportunity.

It is unlikely that their paths would have crossed otherwise.

Then other thing I meant to say FastedBrownie, is that we do have quite a few women on FWR who have someone who is trans in their family. Often a child. They love and support their children but still maintain a gc analysis. You might find common ground.

I imagine it could be a bit of a conflict, though. But I thought I'd let you know.

And, of course, I'm sure you know about the dedicated LGBT boards, but again, just in case

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/lgbt_parents

@MintyMabel - it's fine to be sceptical but in this case, having been on twitter when Helen Staniland was posting this question and when she was banned I am not aware of any 'more to the story'. The question was asked repeatedly and to be completely accurate was worded - should a male-bodied person with a penis be able to undress in a changing room with teenaged girls.

The question was seen by many as an important part of the trans 'rights' v women's rights debate since it is often assumed that transwomen have had surgery to remove their male genitals, and if fact the majority don't.

The question seemed to make trans activists very angry and they eventually began targeting Staniland for repeated complaint reports - claiming that the question was 'targeted abuse'. Eventually after a bombardment of complaints, and a campaign where the word 'penis' was repeatedly posted at HS, she was banned for 'hate speech'.

If anyone knows that there was more to it than that I'd be very interested to hear.

FastedBrownie I was interested to see you and your then child had. Support group of similar families 10- 15 years ago . I thought this push for trans identity for children and young people was a comparatively recent phenomenon, powered by social media, and other issues as has been discussed here, and was mainly something pursued by middle aged men. You also mention as an adult your relative is mainly in a trans identifying group. How did you manage to find all these others? 15 years ago I can’t remember anything ...it was more support for LGB youth. Then Stonewall changed its focus and so on including the loss of gay or lesbian spaces. So what pointed you in the direction of other when this was barely discussed?

it's fine to be sceptical but in this case, having been on twitter when Helen Staniland was posting this question and when she was banned I am not aware of any 'more to the story'.

So, firstly "woman" not "women"

And secondly, people quite often aren't aware of the full story.

@MintyMabel

it's fine to be sceptical but in this case, having been on twitter when Helen Staniland was posting this question and when she was banned I am not aware of any 'more to the story'.

So, firstly "woman" not "women"

And secondly, people quite often aren't aware of the full story.

Indeed. So is there more to it than described by Impatiens?

mintymabel yes there is more to it. Years of (women) to be polite and accepting and accommodating and kind, and having our feelings instincts and experiences , our groups disrupted and destroyed and our safe spaces made more unsafe. That is the background and the reason this thread is now worth putting up here...because women are beginning to see what is happening and realising that ultimately you can’t change sex, not in changing rooms, not in toilets, not in refuges, not in hospital wards ,not in sport and not in prisons.

@MintyMabel

it's fine to be sceptical but in this case, having been on twitter when Helen Staniland was posting this question and when she was banned I am not aware of any 'more to the story'.

So, firstly "woman" not "women"

And secondly, people quite often aren't aware of the full story.

Yes, only one Woman was banned for asking this question - one is quite enough, given that the question is not, in any way, 'hate speech'.

Numerous Women have been banned from twitter in the last few months, for equally superficial reasons.

If you haven't actually got any evidence of of there being more to the 'story' - and I assume you haven't, because you haven't offered any - why are you so sceptical?

YANBU

@Deltoids1

Some people on Twitter seem to revel in the perceived offence. If they didn’t like what Helen was tweeting, the block and mute facility can be used.

Exactly - and that's why it's obvious that banning Staniland was an attempt to stop her asking a question which draws attention to -

a) the dangers of allowing any male to self-id as a woman and access women's/girls facilities
b) the number of transwomen who still have male genitalia (anecdotally, 80% plus)

Twitter banning Women who argue against trans activism has nothing to do with 'hate speech', it's intended to shut down a crucial debate.

For those new to these topics ,it is also important to note that MN has been one of the only mainstream hosts where we have been able to discuss them. However there is heavy moderating on the feminism board fuelled by trans activist bullying and threats. Even on a site for women and mothers we are deleted for certain things and have developed a rather roundabout way of writing about this. Please continue to ask questions but be aware that we may answer quite indirectly- or not.

@334bu

Again with the case by case !!!! Case by case does not mean individual by individual. ! Communal showers for females are not open to males because that would put women in danger. Transwomen are male therefore not allowed. Doesn't matter that Jane is really nice and wouldn't hurt a fly , the mere fact of their male sex excludes them.

Agreed

Please pop popular po please to p po please print and pp pp pp pp pl OPP p pop people people p please pp pp o pl do people pl OPP bag pp please

So, firstly "woman" not "women"

She's not the only one who has been banned for similar.

I was banned from Twitter because I said, and I quote “That still doesn’t make you a woman, it makes you a feminine-presenting man...and there’s nothing wrong with that. Celebrate widening the bandwidth of maleness!” Unbeknown to me, the person I’d got into dialogue with was apparently renowned for reporting anyone who “misgendered” him, and hey presto I was banned for stating, fairly civilly I think, a biological fact.

Thanks to those who shared the 90min Terf Wars video. I was aware that pharmaceuticals stood to gain from increased product demand but the figures were staggering.

Interesting insight from the de-transitioner too. I very much hope that research is done into this. I think what has been happening with Tavistock has highlighted the lack of research so widely that it would be hard to find any convincing arguements against adding to the woeful research available. Fingers crossed, but not holding my breath.

I find it baffling that anyone would be opposed to such research. I do not understand how anyone can justify blocking it. I do not understand the argument that it would be in some way a threat to trans people. If the conclusion is, as activists might argue, that detransitioners were never really properly trans in the first place, that is still an acknowledgement that for some people it's not the answer. Surely looking for common factors and traits to improve assessments and help prevent people being put on a medically and personally unsuitable path is good. As well as the medical resources that were unnecessarily deployed. The cost to both the individual and supporting services is huge.

The problem with the TRAs application of the concept that someone was never really properly trans in the first place is that it is only allowed to be applied retrospectively, because you aren't allowed to question the journey while it's in progress. While it's in progress it's never anything but the real deal, because that's how the affirmative model works.

Sorry if it's been said already, but there was a case of a former student in Seattle suing after she was sexually assaulted in mixed toilets. Sadly I think it's going to be these lawsuits that have any potential impact, rather than the mere evidence that the crimes happening. The possible loss of money and reputation will swing it, rather than them actually caring about women and children.

apnews.com/article/lawsuits-seattle-sexual-assault-38d7b88d17e075ed6da7c20bcbf84c42

I really hope she's successful.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

So, firstly "woman" not "women"

She's not the only one who has been banned for similar.

I was suspended in 2019 for pointing out the following to a prominent trans rights activist celebrated for a long thread denying the existence of sex as biological reality.

1. That women have been oppressed on the basis of their sex by men since long before we had an inkling of what chromosomes were.

1. That it is rather self-serving for males to claim the basis upon which the male sex class oppresses the female sex class doesn't exist.

This was deemed to violate the hateful conduct policy of Twitter that one ought not to incite violence against any protected group.

I'd been on Twitter at that point for over eight years and never even had a warning for anything. I didn't insult or swear or abuse anyone. I didn't call anyone a man who didn't want to be called that (or vice versa).

Of course I appealed the ban, but Twitter never even responded, not even after several renewed attempts to appeal. Obviously I could have deleted and been reinstated (but that then counts as a strike against you). I thought I'd be far better off taking my activism offline where I could actually made a difference, so I haven't been back on Twitter since.

I know many women like me who were banned or suspended for similar non-violations of policy, including for tweeting about male violence, child safeguarding, FGM, sexual abuse etc. There's an account somewhere that collects examples if you're interested.

There is indeed more to the story than just an outright ban. But it's not what you think. It's that Twitter does not recognise sex as a protected characteristic as a matter of principle, therefore not even in countries where it is protected can we expect to argue in defence of women's sex-based rights without fear of such censure. (And yes, Twitter does adjust procedures based on the location of the user. Reporting a tweet for abuse works differently if you live in Germany for instance to account for particular German laws.)

I find it baffling that anyone would be opposed to such research. I do not understand how anyone can justify blocking it.

Nobody is opposed to or blocking research. This is yet another gender critical myth. Caspian's research was rejected because an ethics committee found his methodology would not adequately protect the confidentiality of his participants. He appealed to the university and lost, he appealed to an independent ethics committee and lost, he appealed to the courts and lost and then he applied for appeals to higher courts which were rejected. He is now trying to take it to the EHRC, who I suspect will also decline to hear his case. He'd have been far better off working out a methodology that did ensure confidentiality and then resubmitting his proposal but I guess that wouldn't have got him as much attention.

I fully support as much research as possible both on transition and detransition, but this should be carried out in an ethical way as all research should.

Oh really, do you have evidence of that, jj? First I've heard of it.

'“The fundamental reason given was that it might cause criticism of the research on social media, and criticism of the research would be criticism of the university. They also added it’s better not to offend people,” he told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Monday.'

Is what all the reports I've read have said. Do share your source, please.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/19/proposal-research-trans-regret-rejected-university-fear-backlash/

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41384473

Okay, found an article where the University mentions methodology/confidentiality.

www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/bath-spa-university-james-caspian-2557060

Waiting for the EHCR case, now, I think.

We all know the reason. He will get there in the end though.