That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

[Langrycleg]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

I do find this notion of a young adult male needing this degree of tiptoeing around them, quite disturbing.

I have a 16yo boy.

If I were scared to disagree with him for fear of triggering a meltdown, or for fear of losing my relationship with him, then I'd feel like he was rapidly turning into an abusive & controlling adult, tbh.

Small dc can't help themselves from tantrumming, although generally it's kindest if adults remain firm so that they learn it's an ineffective way of getting their wants met, & that sometimes they just can't have whatever they want.

I worry about this whole idea that a young adult can expect to exert this much control over their parents. & I can't see it ending well if increasing numbers of people refuse to pander to it, as they go through life.

@gardenbird48

I mean to say, and haven’t done well.

No, I don’t believe you have to bring it up all the time. Just once and say, ‘this is my opinion, I draw the line here because I believe x, but you are welcome to have your own opinion. And leave it alone.
No, that would most definitely cause a fight, but worse it would most injure trust and see me

Hi fasted I hope you don’t mind me asking - I have seen a lot of discussion about the potential impact of not going through the major brain development stages of puberty at the right time.

Your sc is now an adult, do you feel that they are emotionally developing as an adult or are they on ‘catch up’ so to speak? Are they not taking any hormone treatment at all now? How does their emotional development stage compare with your dd13?

Emotional development is more or less normal for a 21 year old. Definitely more mature than dd, and DEFINITELY more mature than she was at 13 herself. What I would say is that despite having gone to boarding school, going to uni, having lived on halls, and just in general living independently and tending to her own needs, there is still an enormous need for acceptance and hightened sensitivity to rejection, and what doesn't help with that and sort of enables it a lot is that in the 'woke' community she sort of gets treated like a beloved pampered pet who must be protected at all costs.

The kids themselves are victims too to some degree. They’re told by strangers on Internet forums that if their family doesn’t completely affirm, affirm, affirm then they’re transphobic and should leave and join their “glitter family” instead. And it’s not just on forums. A well known TRA tweeted this. And doctors and therapists at gender clinics also tell families they need to facilitate a denial of reality. I remember watching a documentary last year about “non-binary” children and they had a clip of the therapists asking how it was going with grandparents and getting them to use they/them. This was for an 11 year old girl, being told by a medical professional that her grandparents needed to change, instead of the child being told they should deal with the fact they won’t always come across people willing to lie.

Instead of these kids growing up empowered with the resilience to accept reality, they’re now growing up empowered to force others to deny reality.

I wonder.why ppl on here bring up as an issue the number of times the question was asked? It was the same on twitter before the ban came - why does it matter how many times it was asked if it's a valid question?

And again, she passes really fucking well. If she passed you on the streets I guarantee that you wouldn't think, as somebody put it earlier, that's a dude with a boobjob. The only time it's noticeable is when shirtless because she obviously still has a male pelvis, but even then because she's so tall and skinny it's possible to just mistake it as her body type.

So one thing that does concern me is that if her woke tribe are willing to go so hard for her who falls in the 'if you didn't know, you wouldn't know' camp, imagine what they're like with transwomen who don't even remotely pass.

and just in general living independently and tending to her own needs, there is still an enormous need for acceptance and hightened sensitivity to rejection, and what doesn't help with that and sort of enables it a lot is that in the 'woke' community she sort of gets treated like a beloved pampered pet who must be protected at all costs

This is one of our issues with the whole thing really. Kids do go through alot of phases ( not insinuating this is a phase just giving examples) and the best way usually to deal with it is to let them get on with it within sensible boundaries and get on with life. If you had a kid who announced they were vegetarian, you'd make sure there was a vege option in the school canteen and that would be it. You wouldn't have an assembly, tell the kid you are going to change all your paperwork to reflect their vegetarianism, call PETA to tell tell all avkut your students ajd what you are doing, tell all the other kids that they cant eat meat around them and hold them up as the vegetarian inclusive mascot of the school. If it turns out they were just being polite to the canteen staff cos the beef stew looked rank, you have put them in a realky awkward position, so hard to come back from.

This elevated status to the point where others are erasing theor own boundaries to accommodate, as you say its not really helpful to the student involved. It all just feeds into a destructive cycle doenst it?

Obviously no one means any harm and people are trying to be nice and supportive. But as they say you can kill with kindness..

So one thing that does concern me is that if her woke tribe are willing to go so hard for her who falls in the 'if you didn't know, you wouldn't know' camp, imagine what they're like with transwomen who don't even remotely pass

This is the issue we highlighted earlier. There just is no way to have a rule.inclusive of one but exclusive of the other.

How can those friends allow your SD to change and include them but then when cassie who's not so nice and really doesn't pass , we'll they are a bit stuck then . Puts them in a really difficult and dangerous situation.

As we have been saying boundaries are not personal.

Oh, and for whoever asked - she's on full hormone replacement now after coming off blockers fully around 16 months ago.

That's a really good analogy.

I’ve come to this discussion very very late so please forgive me if I expose myself as a complete idiot.

But I find the idea of gender neutral toilets for all very frightening. The thought of using gender neutral toilets late at night at a bus station is terrifying. Like a lot of women, I’m very scared of strange men. I don’t think many people would say that’s an irrational fear.

I actually discussed this with a friend who is a trans rights activist and her answer was ‘but there are cubicles in gender neutral loos’. Oh great so I can lock myself away from the rapist, thanks.

If it’s a choice between gender neutral toilets for all (no single sex spaces at all) and sharing the women’s loos with transwomen (who are, after all, an extremely small group) I would definitely prefer the latter.

Emotional development is more or less normal for a 21 year old. Definitely more mature than dd, and DEFINITELY more mature than she was at 13 herself. What I would say is that despite having gone to boarding school, going to uni, having lived on halls, and just in general living independently and tending to her own needs, there is still an enormous need for acceptance and hightened sensitivity to rejection, and what doesn't help with that and sort of enables it a lot is that in the 'woke' community she sort of gets treated like a beloved pampered pet who must be protected at all costs.

Thanks for your answer - the first part does sound positive for your sc long term welfare so I’m glad to hear that.

The second part is more concerning- especially given the treatment that any dissent receives and the reports from detransitioners of being ostracised from their previous community.

I realise that your sc is not detransitioning but what was behind the decision to stop the hormone treatment (if that’s not too personal) - will they maintain their current physical appearance long term without any further treatment or will there be a requirement for further treatment in the future?

'If it’s a choice between gender neutral toilets for all (no single sex spaces at all) and sharing the women’s loos with transwomen (who are, after all, an extremely small group) I would definitely prefer the latter.'

The latter effectively is the former, though. If anyone can 'identify' as a woman, then there are no single sex spaces, there is no such thing as sex or single sex. Women's spaces will be for anyone who feels they are women, or nonbinary.

I know this sound far fetched, but look to what we're discussing in Scotland at the moment - whether or not it's going to be a hate crime for women to say 'sex is real' or that there are only two sexes.

The latter effectively is the former, though. If anyone can 'identify' as a woman, then there are no single sex spaces, there is no such thing as sex or single sex. Women's spaces will be for anyone who feels they are women, or nonbinary.

This is what people still aren't grasping. You can't choose just to let in nice, harmless male people or your lovely friends.

@gardenbird48

Emotional development is more or less normal for a 21 year old. Definitely more mature than dd, and DEFINITELY more mature than she was at 13 herself. What I would say is that despite having gone to boarding school, going to uni, having lived on halls, and just in general living independently and tending to her own needs, there is still an enormous need for acceptance and hightened sensitivity to rejection, and what doesn't help with that and sort of enables it a lot is that in the 'woke' community she sort of gets treated like a beloved pampered pet who must be protected at all costs.

Thanks for your answer - the first part does sound positive for your sc long term welfare so I’m glad to hear that.

The second part is more concerning- especially given the treatment that any dissent receives and the reports from detransitioners of being ostracised from their previous community.

I realise that your sc is not detransitioning but what was behind the decision to stop the hormone treatment (if that’s not too personal) - will they maintain their current physical appearance long term without any further treatment or will there be a requirement for further treatment in the future?

She's still on hormones, just not blockers. They stop working as effectively after several years, so you need to make the decision to go onto full hormones, which include proper irreversable anti-androgens, or not.

@Impatiens

I wonder.why ppl on here bring up as an issue the number of times the question was asked? It was the same on twitter before the ban came - why does it matter how many times it was asked if it's a valid question?

I wondered that too. It seems incredibly controlling.

Having read her tweets for a long time, Helen did ask the question over and over. TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE!! Helen wasn’t asking the question to the same person over and over. Yes, maybe they saw the question many time because the people they interacted with would have been asked the question.

There also were people who volunteered their answers without Helen asking. Usually virtual signaling to the people they interacted with.

So when posters on this forum state, ‘but she got the question answered, she should just move on’ I am not sure what planet they live on. Do they honestly think that one person tendering their answer to a question renders that question invalid to ask any body else.

So, McDonalds should stop asking anyone else if they want fries with that? Because everyone has heard it and someone else’s answer....

Not only that, but Helen did not track people down to answer it. She did clarify that twisting the question was not answering and would re ask. Some people did say to her that they couldn’t answer and asked to be left alone. And she did.

It also wasn’t harassing one group, she asked the question to males and females. The entire point was to get everyone to think about a scenario where this could happen and potentially, it realistically could.

because there is nothing to stop people taking advantage of the situation that has been opened because one group had felt their rights have priority over the safeguarding of another group.

So rather than harass Helen for pointing it out, including sexual harassment. Maybe those who couldn’t answer it without conditions or without attempting to deflect and distract needed to instead acknowledge there was a conflict.

Oh! Right. But by a growing number of trans rights organizations, it is now transphobic to acknowledge there is a conflict of rights.

Perhaps those activists need to act like mature adults instead of the immature bullies they clearly are and start understanding others have justified rights and needs too. The world should not revolve around them.

(And by the way, calling Helen ‘Penis Lady’ is not a joke and if you think it is, you are a misogynist. No surprises there though.)

What I would say is that despite having gone to boarding school, going to uni, having lived on halls, and just in general living independently and tending to her own needs, there is still an enormous need for acceptance and hightened sensitivity to rejection, and what doesn't help with that and sort of enables it a lot is that in the 'woke' community she sort of gets treated like a beloved pampered pet who must be protected at all costs.

Yes, I can imagine this.

Should say, even if she decided to de-transition tomorrow, it would be a difficult road. She has a female pitched voice, natural breasts etc, that simply stopping hormones wouldn't necessarily reverse.

Yes, I can imagine this

Can also imagine this is a god send to schools. I mean all the tatty books and sharing 1 lap top between 3 or 4 kids , kids on reduced timetables becuase of lack of staff, children with disabilities struggling with access. Amd one disabled toilet to he shared with any girl who heeds a sanitary bin. I mean to be a realky inclusive school these kids wouldn't he left to get to a point they trashed a classroom or could only attend 2 days a week. Why is there no money for resources to be inclusive but money to pay thousands for the privilege of erasing any reference to sex in your school polices and gender neutral toilets.

Akd of course staff to supervise these new toilets that apparently weren't around before when they were single sex.

Of course schools and businesses will pick re writing a few policies over buildings ramp or too....

@Buddytheelf85

I’ve come to this discussion very very late so please forgive me if I expose myself as a complete idiot.

But I find the idea of gender neutral toilets for all very frightening. The thought of using gender neutral toilets late at night at a bus station is terrifying. Like a lot of women, I’m very scared of strange men. I don’t think many people would say that’s an irrational fear.

I actually discussed this with a friend who is a trans rights activist and her answer was ‘but there are cubicles in gender neutral loos’. Oh great so I can lock myself away from the rapist, thanks.

If it’s a choice between gender neutral toilets for all (no single sex spaces at all) and sharing the women’s loos with transwomen (who are, after all, an extremely small group) I would definitely prefer the latter.

The public toilets in our area for a while had the ladies side closed and made the men’s mixed sex and women had to walk past the urinals. 😬

Anyone that says ‘oh cubicles are fine’ are a) mistaken that all designated mixed sex loos have enclosed cubicles (the law), many are just made by putting a new sign on the door like so (see pic from Exmouth Seafront, not my area) which effectively gives men the free choice of any facility and women that need single sex zero choice,

and b) haven’t come across the rapidly growing market on porn sites for covertly made films of women using the loo. When Target made their changing rooms mixed sex, the incidence of voyeuristic filming shot up massively. Women using the ‘legal’ mixed sex cubicles have found go pro’s set up ready for filming. There have been a number of court cases recently, one in Sainsbury’s I think.

Why would we make that easier??

Considering that sexual assaults in mixed sex changing rooms far exceed the sexual assaults in single sex changing rooms (something like 83%) it has been long established that women need single sex facilities for safety and privacy.

Why would we make that easier??

The fact that some women are privileged enough not to have been attacked or frightened or been in a position where having the refuge of a single sex space was invaluable doesn’t give them the right to wave away all women’s right to that space.

Bearing in mind that the rape conviction rate is 1% (just mind blowing) I think prevention is better then relying on the justice system as a deterrent these days.

Not being in a small enclosed space with one exit and any man free to walk in would help with prevention I think.

and what doesn't help with that and sort of enables it a lot is that in the 'woke' community she sort of gets treated like a beloved pampered pet who must be protected at all costs

And what happens when they all grow up and the adoration stops. When they get bored and move onto the next 'social injustice'
It's also why those like your SC are being used as the poster children for the whole campaign. "Look at the cute harmless kids"

The TRA agenda makes a mockery of your child too. Those who transition being told that others can claim a trans 'identity' without doing a thing.

there is still an enormous need for acceptance and hightened sensitivity to rejection, and what doesn't help with that and sort of enables it a lot is that in the 'woke' community she sort of gets treated like a beloved pampered pet who must be protected at all costs

Can I ask what you think will happen in a future where you SC will have to start acknowledging that the people around them will not cater to their needs, will not treat them like a special being? I know that they are getting therapy, has it started to tackle resilience in any meaningful way?

Do you think your SC will ever be able to see the extent of how every single person in their family, and with the family's assistance smooth their way as much as possible, so many others, has/have had to centre their needs?

That’s one of the issues with the whole ideology though...it’s utterly dependent on the validation of other people and their willingness to reject (or appear to reject) reality. It’s not healthy or sustainable because there will always be someone, somewhere, who can’t or won’t pretend.

Young children won't pretend.

Autistic people may not be able to pretend.

And anyway why should anyone pretend?

Why do women need to change their boundaries so males feel better about themselves?

I know that the person who I'm quoting doesn't believe that women should have to pretend but I feel the point needs making , again.

The public toilets in our area for a while had the ladies side closed and made the men’s mixed sex and women had to walk past the urinals.😬

Anyone that says ‘oh cubicles are fine’ are a) mistaken that all designated mixed sex loos have enclosed cubicles (the law), many are just made by putting a new sign on the door like so (see pic from Exmouth Seafront, not my area) which effectively gives men the free choice of any facility and women that need single sex zero choice, and b) haven’t come across the rapidly growing market on porn sites for covertly made films of women using the loo. When Target made their changing rooms mixed sex, the incidence of voyeuristic filming shot up massively. Women using the ‘legal’ mixed sex cubicles have found go pro’s set up ready for filming. There have been a number of court cases recently, one in Sainsbury’s I think.

Why would we make that easier??

Considering that sexual assaults in mixed sex changing rooms far exceed the sexual assaults in single sex changing rooms (something like 83%) it has been long established that women need single sex facilities for safety and privacy.

Why would we make that easier??

The fact that some women are privileged enough not to have been attacked or frightened or been in a position where having the refuge of a single sex space was invaluable doesn’t give them the right to wave away all women’s right to that space.

Bearing in mind that the rape conviction rate is 1% (just mind blowing) I think prevention is better then relying on the justice system as a deterrent these days.

Not being in a small enclosed space with one exit and any man free to walk in would help with prevention I think.

Absolutely. It is very, very naive to think that cubicles somehow solve the issue of male violence and sexual assault. I remember vividly in the 90s when the family changing cubicles in our local leisure centre had a terrible problem with people (men, it seems reasonable to assume) drilling peep holes in the walls of the cubicles.

The latter effectively is the former, though. If anyone can 'identify' as a woman, then there are no single sex spaces, there is no such thing as sex or single sex. Women's spaces will be for anyone who feels they are women, or nonbinary.

I do understand that but what I’m struggling to understand is how that’s any different to the current position. We don’t generally police women’s toilets - at the moment a man can, if he wishes, put on a dress and waltz into the ladies in most places, as far as I know. So I’m finding it difficult to see how much of a difference self ID will make.

Meanwhile, it seems to me that gender neutral facilities are an incredibly dangerous idea and should not be touted as a solution to the problem.

Self Id means a man can enter without checking that no one is watching.

Self Id means that should an assault be reported in the ladies , the victim has lost the evidence that the person was clearly up to no good. It's back to his word against hers

Some people on Twitter seem to revel in the perceived offence. If they didn’t like what Helen was tweeting, the block and mute facility can be used.