That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

[Langrycleg]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

Don't think I said it was an issue solely for MTF trans people? I just pointed out some facts. Many of the virtue signalling woke lesbians are lying, as they wouldn't actually consider a male partner. I've seen as low as 9% in other surveys and that they are much more likely to be attracted to FTM trans people. Female socialisation probably accounts for some of this.

'OK, can agree with that, appreciate that it started off as a protest.
Is it not a good thing if it has evolved though, that more and more people are becoming allies?
Recognising that discriminating against people for being LGBT is not good?
You can see it as "bandwaggoning" or people are actually sitting up and taking notice and supporting.'

No not really.

It's window dressing. It's fashionable. It's not real. It's not about the real discrimination, violence that people who are actually gay, lesbian, GNC get in real life. It's stalled.

Gay men and lesbians still get shit. They still get kicked in. I had a nice rainbow ally lanyard at work. It costs me nothing. It DOES nothing. It doesn't stop discrimination, violence, othering. As with other things, as I've discovered to my sadness, all it means is that the dominant groups get resentful of the 'special treatment', feel they can't 'say anything any more'. And simmering.

I have come across that so much.

The other thing I have come across. I've known openly gay men at work since I started work in my industry. A few, then more, then in senior positions etc.

I've known one openly lesbian woman.

Again, a hierarchy. Men dominate in my industry. They are aok with gay men now on the whole .

Many when you dig down, even the 'nice' ones. They know you they trust you they 'slip'. The old views about women haven't changed, they're just hiding them.

They couldn't cope with a lesbian manager at all.

And as for bisexual people.... Always feeling and being stuck in the middle with both groups not accepting them.

My experience. Is that men who are xyz will eventually be accepted. Because, and I know this won't go down well. The men still see them as other men. They're being brave and whatnot and should be accommodated.

That is the final and bottom line. Men empathise with other men. Even if they're pretending they think they're women. They don't think they're women. That's why it's got such traction.

We had a couple of trans women in my building, not at my company. They were, I'm sorry to say, obviously men with breast implants and long hair. And proud- which is fine. Badges saying trans and proud etc.

But bottom line is when there's an event after work or its the Xmas do or a leaving do.. and the women are getting changed in the bogs, doing makeup adjusting clothes etc in a suddenly crowded open plan space. None of the women would feel comfy. With what they see as a chap with long hair and breast implants in there.

I know that sounds cruel. But why? Self ID says anything goes. There are other spaces.

This stuff is not trivial for women.

And I'm pissed so I'm going to say it. I've had multiple situations before covid where obvious chaps with a smug look and longish hair and a handbag were queuing for the ladies. Everyone turned a blind eye obviously. Everyone also noticed. The queues for the ladies are long enough. Blokes have for various reasons always been intrigued/ want to get in.

I'm just. No fuck it. Seriously. The idea that anyone should go anywhere WILL result in men going into various women's stuff and the women will quietly... Do our thing. Quick assessment. Bit of eye contact. I'm here you're here that's a chap. Then ignore but we are all on alert.

I have been in so many situations where that female dynamic has happened. Hmm. I've got your back. You've seen that. We're together in this.

Men are oblivious to this.

But again I see this "you can't do anything about it so give it up" attitude from you. No. I support my own lesbian friends of all ages (many who I've met through GC feminism) who have no truck with the idea that the category includes males. Words mean things. Males aren't women, and they can't actually be considered lesbians, when they are actually heterosexual or bisexual males.

As @LangClegsInSpace pointed out, sexual orientation is protected in the EA, and it means gay, lesbian, straight or bisexual. It needs clear definitions.

It's all terribly hand wavey Fastedbrownie.

Your stepchild had meltdowns if not allowed to access female toilets, so you facilitated that & bugger anyone who needed a female space.

Your now adult stepchild is a person with a penis who fancies other people with penises, but yay they're lesbians.

@CorvusPurpureus

It's all terribly hand wavey Fastedbrownie.

Your stepchild had meltdowns if not allowed to access female toilets, so you facilitated that & bugger anyone who needed a female space.

Your now adult stepchild is a person with a penis who fancies other people with penises, but yay they're lesbians.

Of course it is, what's the alternative? Do you expect me to disown my child because they identify as a lesbian? Make every family event uncomfortable and our relationship strained by pointing it out every time we're in the same room? Realistically, in the position that I'm in, what do expect me to do about it other than wave my hand?

Realistically, in the position that I'm in, what do expect me to do about it other than wave my hand?

Admit that you accept these things are believed by your family member but you don’t agree personally. You are very much allowed fo love your family but not agree with their actions and attitudes around certain topics.

Have you ever suggested to your step child that you have a line and that they start respecting you as it goes both ways. You say they are an adult now. Are they? Or are they going to react like a child again if you say ‘I think this is where I draw the line on this particular topic’.

I mean to say, and haven’t done well.

No, I don’t believe you have to bring it up all the time. Just once and say, ‘this is my opinion, I draw the line here because I believe x, but you are welcome to have your own opinion. And leave it alone.

Then maybe that's a conversation lesbians need to be having within their own community

I wholeheartedly agree. As I told a posted on this thread (who ignored it because it is their habit), I have watched conversations about this play out between young people labeling themselves queer. Young lesbians are getting their cues from social media and from chat rooms where they are meeting people who tell them lesbians do ‘dick’ if it a transwoman ‘dick’. They then apply pressure to the group that anything but acceptance is transphobic. Because this is the message they are getting not from school, not from their parents, from the internet interactions they have. And I have found out in my teen’s group that at least one has been in chat sessions with older males calling themselves lesbians. And this is not an isolated incident.

because as long as lesbians keep calling transwomen lesbians and insisting they be included in their spaces, I don't see where transwomen are doing anything wrong in doing so.

I get this. But there is also a huge societal pressure to say these things and to act this way. It is prudent to look beyond the ‘acceptance only’ behaviour being modeled and asks what motivates it. The number of detransitioners who have never met yet share similar experiences is no coincidence. So many seem to share the experience that unless they showed they fully capitulated with the beliefs of their group they were ostracized. Couldn’t even express doubt. This is not limited to young transmen. I watch it play out with teenagers everyday.

What responsibility do transwomen have here? To not perpetuate the myths by insisting they are lesbian and accept ‘same sex’ means ‘same sex’. If they are two transwomen and want to label their relationship, come up with a new label. They are not lesbians. The lobby groups have allowed this change in definition. They have a responsibility too.

‘Same sex’ has legal rights and therefore needs to remain defined as per the intention of those protected. Just as the terms ‘woman’ and ‘female’.

@Winesalot

I mean to say, and haven’t done well.

No, I don’t believe you have to bring it up all the time. Just once and say, ‘this is my opinion, I draw the line here because I believe x, but you are welcome to have your own opinion. And leave it alone.

No, that would most definitely cause a fight, but worse it would most injure trust and see me excluded from conversations that I would prefer to be included in. Dating and sex as a transwoman is difficult, especially coming off of blockers, and if there was an issue there, I would rather know about it than be cut out. Is that a level of enmeshment? Absolutely, but sd is still a very young adult and I would rather keep that level of involvement at the moment.

Ok fasted. At least hopefully you can remain honest to yourself on here. And perhaps are getting an alternative perspective here that is not driven by keeping a stepchild with seemingly precarious mental health happy.

At least, I hope that interacting with others allows you to see the harms that are being done to young women in yet again allowing males to shape their sexuality. I equate it with the way women have had their sex lives shaped by porn addled males. There are these discussions now, but I witnessed it over a decade ago when a friend would discuss her sister’s experience where boys at 15 were demanding blow jobs good night, not kisses. It has moved to other more potentially harmful acts now.

But that was when I noticed teenaged females sexual boundaries were being dramatically lowered by males actions and perpetuated by intense peer pressure.

Now posters who had shown in the past a complete disregard for teenaged females say that ‘conversations about queer sexuality’ is merely expanding the lives of queer people. Without any acknowledgement of just who is labeling themselves’queer’ these days. And without acknowledging what that entails does not then show any understanding that the societal pressure seems stronger than ever on impressionable girls.

Because the person who said that has an agenda that is not about safeguarding teenage girls at all. Only ever males. Every single time. In fact, has a history of completely ignoring risk to teenaged girls (including sexual harms) in that pursuit, that is very clear to any reading their posts on other threads.

I'd like to believe that I haven't gorged on the trans lobby's koolaid. Like I've said several times, I think they've done a lot of damage to both females and actual trans people. And I do have young daughters of my own too (4 and 13), so I'm not in a position of buying into rhetoric of 'twaw, terfs die.' It's an everyday balancing act of ensuring that everybody is safe, healthy and happy.

So you understand exactly where the harm lies in how your daughters (particularly the 13 year old) now are able to define themselves and their boundaries.

There does seem to be a fair bit of walking on egg shells though. An adult male needs to be kept on side by avoiding pointing out reality for fear of exclusion and conflict. I don’t see how that’s sustainable long term, personally.

That’s one of the issues with the whole ideology though...it’s utterly dependent on the validation of other people and their willingness to reject (or appear to reject) reality. It’s not healthy or sustainable because there will always be someone, somewhere, who can’t or won’t pretend.

That’s why I don’t believe it is a kindness to indulge anyone’s belief that they can change sex, or become something they can never be. And I think if someone’s mental health is so fragile that it depends on people never raising certain topics, never mentioning the reality of both sex and sexualities/attraction, never misgendering them...well, I think those people have been very badly served by those activists who have lobbied to have dysphoria no longer considered a mental health condition. Because that is not a healthy way to live, to be so utterly dependent on external validation, and people in that position need robust, sympathetic, accessible psychological support to enable them to better accept and live in some degree of comfort with reality.

Have you ever suggested to your step child that you have a line and that they start respecting you as it goes both ways. You say they are an adult now. Are they? Or are they going to react like a child again if you say ‘I think this is where I draw the line on this particular topic’

Its funny that people claim everything was so much better by affirming and their child was so much happier , but then it transpired that everyone around them is still walking on egg shells and adults still getbto have all the power and control in relationships and have everyone pandering to them. It must be exhausting. I dont see how spending all thise years having to gaslight yourself and bight your tongue and hope certain boundaries are kept within. What avuyt your mental health. Sounds like you have completely sacrificed your own eyes your own mind and your own sanity ti appease someone who still isn't happy..
Honestky I think you have done well to cope tbh.

That’s one of the issues with the whole ideology though...it’s utterly dependent on the validation of other people and their willingness to reject (or appear to reject) reality. It’s not healthy or sustainable because there will always be someone, somewhere, who can’t or won’t pretend.

What a strange world, where the “someone, somewhere” is the only person who seems to care about the truth. I’ve read all of these threads with fascination, and I think that word has only been mentioned once.

[quote PinkyU]@Langrycleg yes, very fast moving.

Frequently there are no changing facilities in the men’s room, I’d much rather they used the changing facilities in the women’s room than used the facilities for disabled people.[/quote]
Why?

What is your objection for the gender-neutral disabled facilities being used for baby changing?

There is very often a baby-changing area in there. There isn't always a baby-changing area in the ladies' toilet.

There does seem to be a fair bit of walking on egg shells though. An adult male needs to be kept on side by avoiding pointing out reality for fear of exclusion and conflict. I don’t see how that’s sustainable long term, personally.

This.

I think I've pretty open about the fact it was very much the second option. I couldn't be dealing with these meltdowns and entire days ruined simply because my child needed to pee. There comes a point where you just say fuck it. It's not worth the stress and drama.

Perhaps tantrums and meltdowns are an indication that your child wasn't actually emotionally mature enough to make the decision to transition.

Mature people don't have tantrums and meltdowns - they discuss things and seek solutions rather than stamping their feet and making everyone around them feel lmiserable.

Did anyone here already mentioned absolutely amazing book “Invisible Women”? It comes as no surprise to women to know that they are socially conditioned, their experiences belittled, needs brushed aside... from ppe and cars to medical research and unpaid care labour and so on, but when you can you see all the evidence in front of you...

Mature people don't have tantrums and meltdowns - they discuss things and seek solutions rather than stamping their feet and making everyone around them feel lmiserable

A lack of boundries and expectations usually makes things worse not better. Kids really don't cope without them. Even when they don't like being told no, without clear consistent boundaries they feel anxious and overwhelmed and unsafe. Sometimes when they act out they do so knowing there's a line and needing that line.

I dont know any other circumstances where you wouldn't deal with the behaviour and continue to confuse the children with a lack of clear rules. Someone somewhere will one day draw the line and is it fair of them to take the hit the anger upset and the abuse because they did what someone else should have done before.

I mean to say, and haven’t done well.

No, I don’t believe you have to bring it up all the time. Just once and say, ‘this is my opinion, I draw the line here because I believe x, but you are welcome to have your own opinion. And leave it alone.
No, that would most definitely cause a fight, but worse it would most injure trust and see me

Hi fasted I hope you don’t mind me asking - I have seen a lot of discussion about the potential impact of not going through the major brain development stages of puberty at the right time.

Your sc is now an adult, do you feel that they are emotionally developing as an adult or are they on ‘catch up’ so to speak? Are they not taking any hormone treatment at all now? How does their emotional development stage compare with your dd13?

Sorry, it’s not very clear but the bit at the top of my post is a quote from an earlier post