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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

999 replies

Langrycleg · 01/02/2021 10:56

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
334bu · 02/02/2021 00:02

Has jj answered the question ? I notice that as the thread has gone on the YABU figure has gone down so it seems to be working

Yes and no. jj doesn't think that girls should have to share with male people with intact genitalia. However, jj doesn't believe that transwomen are "male" people with intact genitalia , so as per usual they don't count.

CharlieParley · 02/02/2021 00:08

[quote jj1968]These organisations not only have a false version and interpretation of the law but they have created an atmosphere where many people feel that they cannot speak up as it can put their job at risk. A family member has been directly affected by this but as a father he can’t speak up to protect his daughters interests because he feels that his job would be at risk.

The false interpretation of the law that is supported by the EHRC, the Government Equalities Office, the Law Society and pretty every other legal body in the land you mean?

And which has been backed by the courts: www.lawcentres.org.uk/policy/news/news/kirklees-law-centre-wins-landmark-transgender-discrimination-case[/quote]
Sorry to be going back to page 5 here, but I wanted to correct the misrepresentation of this case.

The case was uncontested. In the absence of any defence, the claimant won by default. No case was argued, which means the court did not examine whether this person had a right to use the ladies or not. It is therefore not correct to claim that this court has backed the assertion that a legal male has a right to use a female-only space on the basis of self-identifying as female.

This was also a lower court. They do not set precedence.

334bu · 02/02/2021 00:11

Sorry got mixed up with the Staniland question itself

OP question. Again yes and no doesn't think people should be removed from Twitter for merely asking this question but thinks Helen must have done something else to get banned. Needless to say no evidence of this was forthcoming

Quaagars · 02/02/2021 00:17

I agree. It's sometimes entertaining and easy to get sucked into, but always derails

Derailing is always wheeled out when a different viewpoint is heard though.
How is it?
If you truly don't want an echo chamber.
You can't have a discussion if someone always shouts "wah derail" if something is said they might not agree with.

NiceGerbil · 02/02/2021 00:18

Oh FGS

Are we getting dragged off with a tangent about political lesbianism? Christ.

It's an interesting topic but doesn't relate much to real life. The vast majority of people including women and including feminists and including radical feminists know what sexual attraction is.

The idea of political feminism is a divisive one in radical radical feminist circles and is in practice a theoretical exercise rather than a practical one. Still it causes massive arguments and I see no point in raising it on this thread.

At the converse of political feminism is enforced heterosexuality which is worldwide and ironically results in eg people in Iran undergoing gender reassignment surgery because being gay is punishable by death. Well it was when I last checked.

So let's not go there.

Two other points.

Pride. Has become corporatised.
My old work had a sponsor float thingy. They wanted to do a video at work about what pride means to you.

My friend said. It's about PROTEST. he despises the sanitisation. The bandwagoning. He was marching back when you were likely to get a kicking, and if you were spotted it could mean serious problems with family and work. The idea that pride is not about protest is to ignore it's roots and all the very brave men and women who marched before it was safe and full of Deutsche Bank cash, rainbow clad policemen and glitter.

Final point.

I work in an industry where sex is relevant.
I also am on the inclusion group.

Day to day. My colleagues know what sex is, it's important, it's binary. And my colleagues think the idea that gender is important and sex is not is bollocks

On the inclusion thing I have to watch my words. I would like sex to be asked as well as gender id. All with a prefer not to say.

One woman who is lovely is really firm that sex should not be asked.

Our company is 95% male. . I mean surely we need to know if someone says they have experienced sexism, what sex they are?

Why is asking BOTH with a prefer not to say, unacceptable. I simply do not get it. It's not reasonable.

And that is why women are pissed off. We have offered compromise. The answer is no. Every time.

Fastedbrownie · 02/02/2021 00:18

if trans women are women and calling themselves lesbians, are they straight?

Not exactly. It's discounting the entire group of them who call themselves lesbians but don't date biological females, only other transwomen. My sd falls into that category, and I'll level with you, I roll my eyes every time I see a lesbian learn that she's a lesbian, they get really excited and like 'yasss'. It's no, she's not a lesbian in the sense that you are thinking.

NiceGerbil · 02/02/2021 00:20

On the it's happening already thing .

The constant message that men are going to rape women and girls anyway so what's changed

I mean. Fuck off. Are you even thinking about what you're saying?

And this is a mainstream 'argument' I've seen presented by women :/

Quaagars · 02/02/2021 00:25

The constant message that men are going to rape women and girls anyway so what's changed

I think what's meant by that is that if someone was going to rape/assault, they'd do it anyway and not feel the need to have to change and "pretend to be a woman" or whatever.
Being trans has nothing really to do with it.

CorvusPurpureus · 02/02/2021 00:27

@Fastedbrownie

if trans women are women and calling themselves lesbians, are they straight?

Not exactly. It's discounting the entire group of them who call themselves lesbians but don't date biological females, only other transwomen. My sd falls into that category, and I'll level with you, I roll my eyes every time I see a lesbian learn that she's a lesbian, they get really excited and like 'yasss'. It's no, she's not a lesbian in the sense that you are thinking.

In the nicest possible way, your sc & the other male people they're dating need a new word. Lesbian is taken.
NiceGerbil · 02/02/2021 00:28

I know exactly what I mean by that thanks.

Women and girls constantly being told we're prey (it's your fault why were you wearing that skirt why were you there what did you expect) is being REINFORCED by supposed progressives.

Thank you so so much.

Fastedbrownie · 02/02/2021 00:30

corvus

Perhaps, but as long as the vast majority of lesbians not only welcome it but often celebrate it, that's never going to happen.

Quaagars · 02/02/2021 00:30

My friend said. It's about PROTEST. he despises the sanitisation. The bandwagoning. He was marching back when you were likely to get a kicking, and if you were spotted it could mean serious problems with family and work

OK, can agree with that, appreciate that it started off as a protest.
Is it not a good thing if it has evolved though, that more and more people are becoming allies?
Recognising that discriminating against people for being LGBT is not good?
You can see it as "bandwaggoning" or people are actually sitting up and taking notice and supporting.

334bu · 02/02/2021 00:32

*Being trans really has nothing to do with it

Except for all the sex offending transwomen who are just as likely to assault women as other predatory males

CorvusPurpureus · 02/02/2021 00:44

I'm really not convinced that the 'vast majority' of lesbians are thrilled at the notion of two biologically male young persons in a relationship describing themselves as lesbians.

It would get an extremely robust response from all the middle aged lesbians I know.

It would be a kind no, because young people are daft, but it would be a very definite no. They are not lesbians.

CharlieParley · 02/02/2021 00:45

And a little foray onto page 14...

The Equalities Act is the bare minimum. There is nothing untowards about introducing inclusion policies which go beyind it.

You are absolutely correct, jj1968. However, any new policies must uphold the Equality Act. So an inclusive policy that disregards the rights of people with a protected characteristic is unlawful. This is what Stonewall has been doing through its charter. And because Stonewall's position conflicts with the protections women enjoy on the basis of their sex, they sought to fix that problem by lobbying the UK government to remove the sex-based exemptions. They almost succeeded too, but Theresa May's early election decision in 2017 buggered that up royally.

The College of Policing's policy was based on the Macpherson Inquiry recommendations and the EHRC guidance was produced in 2011, four years before Stonewall began supporting trans people.

Correct again. However, the College of Policing's policy was originally and only concerned with racially motivated crimes and with the fact that people who later went on to commit racially aggravated crimes could be found to have been openly racist long before they committed those crimes, and often also to have committed racially aggravated crimes that were much lower-level ones. Their argument was twofold - had they paid attention to a pattern of criminal behaviour that was racially motivated prior to this escalating to serious crime, they might have been able to prevent this. And, of course, registering such low-level but racially motivated behaviour is useful evidence in court later.

No such justification exists on recording the comments made by those critical of the doctrine of gender identity. However rude those comments may be. There is no legal right not to be offended. Moreover, no such escalation has ever been shown as was shown in racially motivated crimes. That's why, of course, this policy is concerning, especially when this results in people having a hate incident recorded on their police file that shows up under a DBS search.

Furthermore, while it is true that Stonewall officially refocused on trans rights issues only after the EHRC guidance was written, it was already one of the issues they were working on at the time.

More important though is the fact that we now know that the EHRC was advised solely by trans rights organisations during the drafting of its statutory guidance on single-sex provisions and the access rights of those who identify as trans. Although that wasn't Stonewall but other trans rights organisations, the general point made in the comment you replied to stands:

EHRC guidance misinterprets the Equality Act where it weighed up how to resolve a conflict between the protected characteristic of sex and the protected characteristic of gender reassignment because it was unduly influenced by lobbyists for the latter while not seeking the views of any groups campaigning for the former.

So the fact that the EHRC guidance still (in some areas) agrees with your position is not proof that your position is right, but (in this case) merely proof that it reflects your position because that's the only one it listened to at the time it was originally written. It takes time to correct this oversight.

(The Government Equalities Office is a curious player in this field. In correspondence with a women's rights group for instance they confirmed that blanket policies are completely lawful when the service can show they are legitimate and proportionate (such as a rape crisis service offering a strictly female-only service). On its social media they can often be found to say something completely different.)

This obsession that Stonewall are secretly behind everything gender critical people don't like is pure conspiracy theory. I even saw someone claiming Stonewall were behind Biden's support for trans rights recently. It's batshit.

I agree. Again. This is far bigger than Stonewall and they are just one player in this field. Not even that well funded compared to campaigners in the US.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/02/2021 00:45

Perhaps, but as long as the vast majority of lesbians not only welcome it but often celebrate it, that's never going to happen.

It doesn't actually bear out in their relationships though, so it's not a heartfelt belief. Ally in the streets, transphobe in the sheets.

www.them.us/story/cis-trans-dating

Fastedbrownie · 02/02/2021 00:59

[quote Ereshkigalangcleg]Perhaps, but as long as the vast majority of lesbians not only welcome it but often celebrate it, that's never going to happen.

It doesn't actually bear out in their relationships though, so it's not a heartfelt belief. Ally in the streets, transphobe in the sheets.

www.them.us/story/cis-trans-dating[/quote]
I don't think people who won't sleep with trans people are transphobic, and neither does sd, because if she did she would be hypocritical because she only dates penis barers. It used to be men, but when you're a young passing transgirl who fits into societal standards of beauty, you attract a lot of freaks and closested gay men who want to pretend you're not trans at all. So now it's just easier and safer to date other transwomen.

But young lesbians are definitely very into and enthusiastic of it, even before they realise she only dates other transwomen, and especially after. I don't know why.

NoIDontLikeTrains · 02/02/2021 01:00

Eresh from that article: It is also possible that at least some of the trans exclusion is due to the fact that for some people, sexual orientation might be not (just) about a partner’s gender identity, but attraction to specific body types ShockShockShockShockShockHmm

LangClegsInSpace · 02/02/2021 01:04

Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/12

That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)
Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/02/2021 01:09

But young lesbians are definitely very into and enthusiastic of it, even before they realise she only dates other transwomen, and especially after. I don't know why.

It's called virtue signalling.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/02/2021 01:10

So now it's just easier and safer to date other transwomen.

Absolutely. I think that's great. But it doesn't make males lesbians,

Fastedbrownie · 02/02/2021 01:16

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But young lesbians are definitely very into and enthusiastic of it, even before they realise she only dates other transwomen, and especially after. I don't know why.

It's called virtue signalling.

Then maybe that's a conversation lesbians need to be having within their own community, because as long as lesbians keep calling transwomen lesbians and insisting they be included in their spaces, I don't see where transwomen are doing anything wrong in doing so.
CharlieParley · 02/02/2021 01:16

@Quaagars

The constant message that men are going to rape women and girls anyway so what's changed

I think what's meant by that is that if someone was going to rape/assault, they'd do it anyway and not feel the need to have to change and "pretend to be a woman" or whatever.
Being trans has nothing really to do with it.

But safeguarding does. Which is what Helen is asking about with her question. You are right, of course, being trans has nothing to do with it. Being male does though.

And there is more than just the Swiss Cheese Model to safeguarding which holds that no single protective measure is 100% successful, but the more layers (or protective measures) we apply, the closer we get to 100%.

There's also the Opportunity Guardianship theory (or Routine Activity Theory), which holds that three things have to come together for a crime to happen: a motivated offender, a suitable victim and the absence of a guardian. What this means is, given how many crimes are crimes of opportunity, if we remove an existing guardian (ie a protective measure) we make an attack more likely.

So the social taboo against males above a certain age in female-only spaces acts as the protective measure and the women in that space act as guardians against the opportunist by being able to challenge him. So yes, men who want to enter a female toilet to rape have always done so and will continue to do so. But most of the time they are thwarted before they even go in because they might be challenged. That's a strong deterrent. That's why most of these crimes happen in deserted places with bad lighting and little footfall, like a public toilet in a park.

It's true that nothing has changed in the sexual predator's desire to rape. We're just giving them more opportunities to do so by turning female-only spaces into mixed-sex ones and censuring those who would have naturally acted as guardians.

That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)
Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/02/2021 01:17

Then maybe that's a conversation lesbians need to be having within their own community, because as long as lesbians keep calling transwomen lesbians and insisting they be included in their spaces, I don't see where transwomen are doing anything wrong in doing so.

Not all lesbians. There's quite a divide on this issue.

Fastedbrownie · 02/02/2021 01:19

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Then maybe that's a conversation lesbians need to be having within their own community, because as long as lesbians keep calling transwomen lesbians and insisting they be included in their spaces, I don't see where transwomen are doing anything wrong in doing so.

Not all lesbians. There's quite a divide on this issue.

But how is that transwomen's issue? It is certainly the vast majority of lesbians under 30, arguably under 40, who are like this.