Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

999 replies

Langrycleg · 01/02/2021 10:56

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
334bu · 01/02/2021 23:08

Who the fuck is anyone to say that a member of the male sex is a lesbian!

jj1968 · 01/02/2021 23:10

@ErrolTheDragon

Dear lord, do you think Eddie Izzard is a lesbian too?Hmm
I don't know, I've never asked them.
borntobequiet · 01/02/2021 23:11

As Sheila Jeffrey's group emphatically stated in the 70s.

The 70s were full of idiotic nonsense. I know, I was there. And I’m really fed up that it’s just got worse.

At least in the 70s people had the excuse they were stoned out of their tiny brains.

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 01/02/2021 23:11

I am all for not labelling one’s sexuality. I want everyone to be happy, do whatever they want in bed and preferably abstain from telling me about it.

But if you must put a label on it... why come up with labels that mean nothing? Why not say “open” or “pan sexual” or whatever people say?

If lesbian is whatever a person who identifies as lesbian says it is, why use the label at all? It is insane.

jj1968 · 01/02/2021 23:12

@CoffeeTeaChocolate

I am all for not labelling one’s sexuality. I want everyone to be happy, do whatever they want in bed and preferably abstain from telling me about it.

But if you must put a label on it... why come up with labels that mean nothing? Why not say “open” or “pan sexual” or whatever people say?

If lesbian is whatever a person who identifies as lesbian says it is, why use the label at all? It is insane.

Or queer perhaps? Many people do, probably most younger trans people for a start.
jj1968 · 01/02/2021 23:16

If lesbian is whatever a person who identifies as lesbian says it is, why use the label at all? It is insane.

Because human beings do not necessarily fit easily into strict taxonomies, especially when it comes to something as complex and personal as sexuality.

CorvusPurpureus · 01/02/2021 23:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

334bu · 01/02/2021 23:20

Or queer perhaps? Many people do, probably most younger trans people for a start

They can call themselves whatever they like as long as they don't appropriate a term which then denies the sexuality of lesbians.
For too long lesbians have had to put up with males telling that all they need is to have sex with a male( being polite here!)

lifeturnsonadime · 01/02/2021 23:21

Woman has always meant adult human female.

Lesbian always meant same sex attraction.

Now we are to believe these words have new meanings.

Of course Transwomen will consent to the meaning of the words women and lesbian to include males.

It suits the likes of Stonewall to broaden the definition so that it doesn't represent the original meaning.

The questions are:

Do women consent to this change in the meaning of the word woman?
Do lesbians (same sex attracted) consent to change the meaning of the word lesbian to something other than same SEX attraction and more specifically penises.

Quaagars · 01/02/2021 23:22

People are allowed to show a differing opinion, corveous even if you might not like that

lifeturnsonadime · 01/02/2021 23:22

And the answer to this is that broadly speaking women and same sex attracted women (lesbians) have no desire to include people with penises in their definitions.

No matter what JJ says to the alternative.

Cailleach1 · 01/02/2021 23:23

A lesbian can be a woman who loves other women but is not necessarily sexually attracted to them but identifies that way for political reasons.

In that case my boy cat is a lesbian. He loves me and I think it is politically motivated to the degree I do the feeding and treats. I don't think he is sexually attracted to me. Do you have to be human to be a lesbian, since now I've found out you don't have to be a woman? In any case, who can define human. The Mog self ID's, methinks.

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 01/02/2021 23:24

Why put a label on it at all if it is so complex?

Just say “open” or “queer”. I think it will create a hassle if you come up with a name which means different things to everyone who uses it.

And that does not work for legal protection.

LangClegsInSpace · 01/02/2021 23:25

Has Karon Monaghan QC, one of the UK's most repsected equalities lawyers who is sympathetic to the GC cause been brainwashed by Stonewall

No she hasn't and I can't work out what part of her oral evidence you think supports your position. Karon Monaghan has a very clear understanding of the EA and the way the GRA interacts with it.

From her evidence session for the ehrc inquiry:

But for certain safe spaces, so that people know and we don’t have to go through this exercise of proportionality and we don’t have to identify precisely what the issues are in every individual case, we can say, “We have a blanket policy and that is because there is an exemption.”

Even if Parliament hasn’t got the time at the moment to change the exemptions, at the very least there should be very clear guidance, so that people feel confident saying, “I’m sorry, but with this service—”.

data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/enforcing-the-equality-act-the-law-and-the-role-of-the-equality-and-human-rights-commission/oral/92165.html

'Case by case' doesn't feature in the EA. EHRC put it in the statutory guidance but it's not backed by the primary legislation so it's open to judicial review. Obviously 'case by case' is unworkable if it means frontline charity workers and volunteers have to make a decision for each individual tw who wants access to a service or space. That's when we get into horrible discussions around feminine presentation, who has a beard, who has a penis, who 'passes' etc.

'Case by case' makes sense if it means 'service by service', as Karon Monaghan says, and I can think of no circumstances where it's a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim to have a single sex service in the first place, but to also allow some male people to join in with that. Most of the focus seems to be on what's proportionate but if women's spaces and services must let in some male people then what was the legitimate aim in the first place?

Also I don't understand why you have been castigating Ann Sinnott's legal action against EHRC because of their unlawful guidance when your own link makes the following recommendations:

29. We recommend that the Government Equalities Office issue a clear statement of the law on single-sex services to all Departments, including the requirement under the public sector equality duty for commissioners of services to actively consider commissioning specialist and single-sex services to meet particular needs. (Paragraph 168)

30. We do not believe that non-statutory guidance will be sufficient to bring the clarity needed in what is clearly a contentious area. We recommend that, in the absence of case law the EHRC develop, and the Secretary of State lay before Parliament, a dedicated Code of Practice, with case studies drawn from organisations providing services to survivors of domestic and sexual abuse. This Code must set out clearly, with worked examples and guidance, (a) how the Act allows separate services for men and women, or provision of services to only men or only women in certain circumstances, and (b) how and under what circumstances it allows those providing such services to choose how and if to provide them to a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. (Paragraph 190)

EHRC statutory guidance is secondary legislation. It has the same legal status as the regulations that are currently keeping us all in lockdown, except there's no expiry date. Of course it matters if EHRC have misrepresented the law and if they have then of course it should be challenged and of course they should be required to produce new statutory guidance if the courts decide that is necessary.

lifeturnsonadime · 01/02/2021 23:27

It's just so obvious that men want to appropriate all of the words that women use to describe for themselves to include them.

They also want to appropriate our safe spaces.

And if we have the gall to object to this publicly or on social media we must be silenced and if they can do it they'll get us removed from our jobs.

Thewithesarehere · 01/02/2021 23:28

@jj1968

If lesbian is whatever a person who identifies as lesbian says it is, why use the label at all? It is insane.

Because human beings do not necessarily fit easily into strict taxonomies, especially when it comes to something as complex and personal as sexuality.

It doesn’t matter who believes this particular definition of your and who doesn’t. What matters is a most biological patterns go hand in hand with the definitions we currently have and the point you are trying to discuss is such low priority in women’s list that it doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things.
CorvusPurpureus · 01/02/2021 23:29

@Quaagars

People are allowed to show a differing opinion, corveous even if you might not like that
I agree completely. But equally, I think that a prolific poster should be open to having their agenda examined.

For avoidance of doubt, I think this particular poster should be enthusiastically encouraged to post. Lots.

Thewithesarehere · 01/02/2021 23:29

@Cailleach1

A lesbian can be a woman who loves other women but is not necessarily sexually attracted to them but identifies that way for political reasons.

In that case my boy cat is a lesbian. He loves me and I think it is politically motivated to the degree I do the feeding and treats. I don't think he is sexually attracted to me. Do you have to be human to be a lesbian, since now I've found out you don't have to be a woman? In any case, who can define human. The Mog self ID's, methinks.

Grin
Cailleach1 · 01/02/2021 23:29

Dead right. Mogs don't necessarily fit into strict taxonomies. no more batshit than what is being postured about men being lesbians now .

334bu · 01/02/2021 23:30

People are allowed to show a differing opinion, corveous even if you might not like that

True but not when they are denying biological reality. Humans come in 2 sexes and their sexuality is determined by whether they are attracted to their own sex, the opposite sex or indeed both. So when a member of the one sex appropriates a term used to describe the sexuality of a a member of the opposite sex then this is insulting and in the case of " lesbian" homophobic.

Sparkyduchess · 01/02/2021 23:33

Ffs, lesbians are female people who are exclusively attracted to other female people.

This whole ideology is revoltingly homophobic - nobody male, however they define themselves, can be a lesbian.

It’s like we’re back in the 70s, with shit misogynistic comedians har harring about how they must be lesbians because they fancy women.

Thewithesarehere · 01/02/2021 23:36

@jj1968
If you haven’t, I invite you to read Invisible Women.
This talk of yours is insignificant compared to what women are still facing in 21st century. There is so much to do that having to fight for women only spaces and sports is actually several steps back in the direction of 19th century.

CorvusPurpureus · 01/02/2021 23:46

& I'm sorry to be so impatient, but jj's posts have been going on for months. Lots of mendacious waffle as to why we should accept men in female spaces.

It all comes down to 'we are doing it already. Put up with it.'

I'm very done with that. I say NO.

Langrycleg · 01/02/2021 23:51

Has jj answered the question ? I notice that as the thread has gone on the YABU figure has gone down so it seems to be working *
Nice to see so many persistent women still taking time to explain not irritated shitless by the derailments.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/02/2021 23:55

& I'm sorry to be so impatient, but jj's posts have been going on for months. Lots of mendacious waffle as to why we should accept men in female spaces.

It all comes down to 'we are doing it already. Put up with it.'

I'm very done with that. I say NO.

I agree. It's sometimes entertaining and easy to get sucked into, but always derails.

Swipe left for the next trending thread