To have become a Brexiteer yesterday?

[Mentum]

I was so Remain, I was devastated when we left. But the EU trying to steal our vac and casually invoking Article 16 has really left me aghast. I can't believe they are lashing out this way, I don't understand why.

C'mon. Why was the U.K. govt absolutely insistent on a hard-as-nails Brexit? Because they don't want to be tied by EU rules of food, environmental and employment standards in future trade deals.

The only example I'm aware of of the UK wanting different food standards to the EU was from long ago when the UK decided it wanted higher welfare standards for pigs. Higher standards meant production subsequently shifted to Denmark.

@hoiking Welcome to the club. I'm hoping someone will open the Brexit Arms again so all the new folk can gather and share a drink while we watch the EU car crash

That’s the spirit, let’s turn previous allies (that we chose to separate from) into enemies. History tells us this is a wonderful strategy for international relations and stability

@tenredthings
My DH’s business imports 75% goods from Europe & all he has dealt with this month is red tape, delays and increased costs. For anyone thinking Brexit is not having an effect there is hidden chaos under the surface.

@tenredthings - agreed, hypocritical stance by many

Luck ! Goodness
Do something wrong and UK gov are wholly responsible - do something right and it is luck !

How awful to be so negative about everything -maybe they consult with Eeeore for their daily bit of cheer.

We are either first or second in the table of ordering the most vaccines per citizen. I think the other country close to us was Canada. It is not pure chance we have ordered the right vaccines. We backed lots and lots of horses and had the right early tips and info to back the right ones.

Many countries attempted to obtain their own supplies of the vaccines and failed.

Added to which, as the AZ vaccine wasn’t actually authorised within the EU those countries would not have been able to use them any sooner than the rest of the EU.

Completely agree with posters about vaccine nationalism not being a solution if we are not to create even worse health inequalities and to restore international travel to what it was.

There will be a lot of discontent from countries within the EU who signed up to the vaccine purchase plan. Being part of a big bloc works for things like selling cars. Earlier in the pandemic, the problems with supplies of PPE for workers in the NHS and social care were worse in the UK than in the EU because we chose not to join the EU bulk purchase scheme. However, the EU has been slow to authorise and purchase vaccines. I think the EU Commission were trying to deflect blame. The now retracted Article 16 agreement was astonishingly crass in that it united the DUP, Sinn Fein, the British (Westminster) and Irish governments in opposition.

I'd prefer to still be in the EU but I have no problem with criticising their approach which treats vaccine procurement like widgets. Orban is already purchasing Chinese and Russian vaccines in Hungary. Countries like Belgium in which there have been many deaths and which actually manufactures the Pfizer vaccine will naturally feel aggrieved by the slow roll out. The Commission will need to rethink their approach on this.

Blessed Actually Canada has no domestic supply though so are struggling it seems, they are dependent on EU supplies. If the EU actually block exports I can see many other countries getting extremely angry.

@AlternativePerspective exactly. And Ireland tried to pre-order the AZ vaccine so they could hit the ground running and got their knuckles slapped by mum and dad.

@RandomLondoner a sign of things to come?www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/bees-kill-pesticide-insect-sugar-neonic-b1784693.html

@Mentum the protectionism is scary and surely big manufacturers around the world are

Mentum

DeniseTheMenace I hope Kate Bingham gets every gong and honour available. I thought she was just another crony but now realise how extraordinary she has been.“

Agree. Happy to be corrected but I believe she took the role on a voluntary basis too, no recompense (before everyone jumps in with how wealthy she already is, I know. It’s still quite a rare contribution these days though).

[quote Blessex]@MadCatLady71 except they cannot sue AZ because the contract said that they would do their best to hit the numbers on time but they can’t guarantee it. Why not????? Because the EU signed the deal late.[/quote]
It’s true that AZ have to use ‘best reasonable efforts’ but as they explicitly stated in the contract that there were no impediments to them fulfilling the agreement, when in fact there was (the pre-existing contract with the U.K. - not to mention the fact that their EU labs weren’t ready to begin production) means that AZ over-promised.

[Astra Zeneca] is not under any obligation, contractual or otherwise, to any Person or third party ..... that would impede the complete fulfilment of its obligations under this Agreement.

Really, this is an issue that shouldn’t be troubling anybody but a lot of contract lawyers at AZ and the Commission - but because it is so emotive at the moment it has all got out of hand.

@AlternativePerspective - it’s a contractual dispute which is not as simple as ordering a pair of shoes. But in any event if you did order shoes and didn’t get them you could sue for breach of contract. There’s no first come first served rule in law.

Seems people thought we could keep all the benefits we had as EU members without any of the negatives!

I don't think that anyone thought that there would be no negative consequences at least in the sort term but it has given us a little hope that the consequences will not be all bad.

Here is how Germany buying up additional supplies has gone down across Europe. Not so well. Could you imagine if the U.K. had done the same if it were part of the EU deal.

Germany’s actions are technically a violation of the Commission’s vaccination strategy, as the bloc agreed to allocate coronavirus vaccines by population and not talk bilaterally with the companies it was negotiating with. But a Commission official said it complies with “the spirit of the EU vaccine agreement” because Germany’s extra doses will come after the Commission’s supply.

The Commission official added that the EU will purchase a “substantial amount of additional doses” from BioNTech/Pfizer coming, reportedly between 50-100 million.

Others are not convinced. Massimo Galli, director of the Infectious Diseases Center of the Sacco Hospital in Milan, called it “wrong, and not a nice thing to hear about,” while Dutch MEP Mohammed Chahim called it “pure vaccine nationalism.”

Best endeavours has a legal meaning and the EU could certainly sue under the contract.

In a discussion on this subject elsewhere I learned that "best endeavours" does indeed have legal meaning, it would mean that you have to do everything you can to deliver, to the point of going bankrupt.

I also learned that the contract does not say "best endeavours", it says "best efforts", which is a completely different thing, apparently.

Before we puff our chest out, let's take a look at the UK's covid death toll. They are sobering figures, to put it mildly. We nearly double Central European countries. We are no example. Our vaccine rollout is a big positive. But we have royally fucked up with covid. Our government has let this wildfire go nuclear.

@AlternativePerspective - more misinformation. The member states can authorise medicines themselves. If the EU does it first then the member state doesn’t have to.

It is true that many small countries (within and without the EU) were unable to get their own supplies. Hence the reason for EU procurement for its members.

@SarahBellam

Of course you were, dear.

Exactly

We paid more in we ordered earlier its contract law and they are throwing a tantrum over it

Classy

@thevanguardsix there are many reasons we have the highest death toll that have nothing to do with our government.

Everybody counts numbers differently. We have high levels of obesity. Our flu season was mild in 2019. Our population density. Our high BAME population.

So many many reasons.

Some posters salivating at the EU making a great big cock up.
Brexit is still a disaster and many are waking up to the fact

[quote GrumblyMumblyisnotJumbly]@RandomLondoner a sign of things to come?www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/bees-kill-pesticide-insect-sugar-neonic-b1784693.html[/quote]
I hope they know what they're doing. I'd rather have a beet shortage than a bee shortage.

@RandomLondoner - best reasonable efforts is broadly equivalent to best endeavours in English law. The contract is not English law though.

The contract between the EU and UK has the same best efforts in it I understand but they haven’t published it and we don’t know the details.

What’s alarming is the way the tabloids have stirred up nationalist jingoism and so many people have just gone along with it. It’s all a bit QAnon - the “EU are stealing our vaccines” they are criminal, etc. It’s really worrying that things have come to this.

The contract published showed the EU certainly have a point.

The UK can't have its cake and eat it.

I said it on another thread yesterday, every country has done mistakes throughout the pandemic and also handled some things well, or got lucky with them. This is not a competition though. People are dying.

The UK's handling of the pandemic has been awful. The vaccination programme however, is going well.

On the other hand, to all those saying how angry the EU citizens must be at their governments for not securing the vaccine earlier. We're not.

Because our numbers are half those of the UK, and that's without a vaccine! You would think after 6 weeks of vaccinating its population, UK's cases would've gone way down. 25-30k cases a day. After 6 weeks of vaccinating. Wait a minute, the Pfizer vaccine is also being administered incorrectly...

My local incidence (second most densely populated city in Germany - similar to London) is under 90. That's without a vaccine and with less restrictions than in the UK. Deaths are less than half. London's incidence is over 400. It's been close to 1000. At the highest point of this wave, our incidence was 210. It was deemed unacceptable and it never went above that. The country has still been affected but our numbers are so much lower and the government has showed time and time again, they're able to handle new surges in cases. Waiting two more months for a vaccine is doable when the numbers are so low.

I do appreciate other EU countries aren't in the same position. Where my parents live in Southern Europe, the incidence is 1500. They need a vaccine ASAP - so I'm not saying the EU is perfect. But most of its countries have been able to handle this wave so, so much better than the UK and that's without a vaccine.