To have become a Brexiteer yesterday?

[Mentum]

I was so Remain, I was devastated when we left. But the EU trying to steal our vac and casually invoking Article 16 has really left me aghast. I can't believe they are lashing out this way, I don't understand why.

@CayrolBaaaskin yes and extremely worrying that the EU triggered article 16. There is more than the British media going slightly crazy.

@Theunamedcat - as I said the EU clearly have a point that it’s a breach of contract not to deliver their vaccines. It’s not clear cut who a court would agree with but they have a good case. It matters not at all in law when they ordered their vaccines.

@Mentum

I was so Remain, I was devastated when we left. But the EU trying to steal our vac and casually invoking Article 16 has really left me aghast. I can't believe they are lashing out this way, I don't understand why.

That's about the most ridiculous statement I've seen.

Stealing 'our' vac - total nonsense. It's not the UK's vaccine.

(Full disclosure: I'm in Ireland, so you won't get any sympathy for your position)

@ CayrolBaaaskin you seem to think vaccines are flat packed furniture piled up somewhere. AZ aren’t going to stockpile vaccine while EU make their mind up.
Sanofi would have had obligations to fulfil EU supply before fulfilling other contracts. However, the EU for political and clearly nationalistic reasons (not bad luck) backed a couple of wrong horses.
Pfizer are complaining the EU didn’t order enough of their vaccine and are now throwing weight around too causing pressure for everyone else because of their lack of ordering and building infrastructure for their own supply. Sanofi site now being repurposed for Pfizer and takes about 3-4 months. EU have not planned.
The EU are wholly at fault.

@EileenGC

1. The U.K. have a mutated strain that spreads faster
2. People in EU countries are mighty pissed off about slow vaccine rollout.
3. Portugal incidents and death rates per 100 people is higher than the U.K.
4. U.K. numbers are coming down drastically - due to lockdown and the vaccine
5. The Pfizer dose rollout is backed up by scientific data

But don’t let the facts sway your post.

YABU. There is a bit of information missing - why the shortfall took place and why it was so significant?

Imho it was right that the European Commission was purchasing vaccine for the whole of the EU otherwise there would have been spats like EU v UK over vaccine supply and pricing all over the EU.

The reality is that, according to the media, Spain has stopped it's vaccination programme because of lack of supplies. You can imagine that the European Commission was (and is) under huge pressure to explain why. So whether it's AZ alone, or a combination of events, there seems to be some real questions to answer... .

Having said that, turning this in to a trade dispute with NI just looks ridiculous and suggests that the Commission is well outside its comfort zone and skill set.

It doesn't alter the fact that coordinating purchasing and pricing at the EU level was still a good move. (Imagine if Germany had ended up with all the supply and Slovenia none?)

I am baffled that so many are able to be so partisan and disgusted by their own country and unable to hold any balance or change their position even in the face of bullying, illegal behaviour

Me too but I think it's a combination of arrogance and stubbornness.

@Blessex - would be worrying if it were true.

@EileenGC well you can all wait for the vaccine can't you :)

We voted to protect our interests, they are simply following suit

Exactly. It’s like one day kicking a loyal partner out the house after decades if marriage and filing for divorce, all the while making up exaggerated shit about how terrible they were. Then being taken aback when they lawyer up and try to get everything they can off you.

The friendship is dead. Britain killed it, not the EU. So don’t now whine when they treat you as awkward clients/competitors rather than partners/ buddies.

@EileenGC and by the way - why have German death rates shot up recently. Much worse second wave than the first.

@CayrolBaaaskin are you now claiming that the EU didn’t trigger article 16? Blimey.

@Cam77

We voted to protect our interests, they are simply following suit

Exactly. It’s like one day kicking a loyal partner out the house after decades if marriage and filing for divorce, all the while making up exaggerated shit about how terrible they were. Then being taken aback when they lawyer up and try to get everything they can off you.

The friendship is dead. Britain killed it, not the EU. So don’t now whine when they treat you as awkward clients/competitors rather than partners/ buddies.

This ^

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@Theunamedcat - as I said the EU clearly have a point that it’s a breach of contract not to deliver their vaccines. It’s not clear cut who a court would agree with but they have a good case. It matters not at all in law when they ordered their vaccines.[/quote]
The wording in the contract would be illuminating

But

When you work to order in manufacturer you usually process one order at a time ongoing orders may run simultaneously but obviously whoever ordered first will have a head start

The EU would have been better supporting the uplift in manufacturing process smoothing the way for procurement supply and delivery

@Lampzade

Some posters salivating at the EU making a great big cock up. Brexit is still a disaster and many are waking up to the fact

I'm rather hoping that, thanks to the vaccination programme, rather more people will be waking up tomorrow than would otherwise be the case.

I suspect-we'll see-that the UK has been more rigorous with recording Covid deaths than one or two other countries have been.

@Floppywin - I don’t understand your post. What does flat pack furniture have to with anything? The EU definitely have a point that there has been a breach of contract. As I said, there is no first come first served rule in law when it comes to these things.

Those trumpeting that we should nobly pass on our vaccines toEuropean countries to ensure fair distribution to all elderly and vulnerable, do you realise that other countries have different vaccination priorities?

I am not greatly thrilled by the idea of vaccinating government officials first (eg in Poland). And in Germany MPs are in group 3.

1. The U.K. have a mutated strain that spreads faster
The strain is in Germany too. It's everywhere.

2. People in EU countries are mighty pissed off about slow vaccine rollout.
Of course there's pissed off people everywhere. Some EU countries need the vaccine badly.

3. Portugal incidents and death rates per 100 people is higher than the U.K.
No they're not. Death incidence - 1533 UK vs 1168 Portugal. Cases higher in Portugal - which says even more about them when they've managed less deaths.

4. U.K. numbers are coming down drastically - due to lockdown and the vaccine
No they're not. Not at the speed one would expect after 6 weeks of vaccination. Why are Germany's and other countries' numbers coming down WAY faster than the UK's? Vaccine programme in the UK - amazing. Lockdown and pandemic handling - atrocious.

5. The Pfizer dose rollout is backed up by scientific data
It really isn't.

You need to get your information from reputable academic sources.

@Defaultname I suspect-we'll see-that the UK has been more rigorous with recording Covid deaths than one or two other countries have been.

Indeed.

We need to remember that this isn't a dispute between the EU and Uk. It's between the EU and AZ and luckily our Govt appear to be staying out of it.

The EUs behaviour doesn't surprise me - the fact that's they've done it so publicly and so badly suggests they are under sustained pressure from many of their members. Normally they only get heat from
1 or 2 at a time.

This is how the EU behaves - it's the reason I've wanted to leave for the past 20 years. Normally they're good at hiding it and trying to keep with the moral high ground which does seem to fool lots of people including most of MN who think that the EU can do no wrong and the UK can do no right.

The fact is it's a power hungry bloc run by the Commission which cannot be voted out . It's deliberately designed that way and completely misunderstood by many who try and suggest the commission is the equivalent of the UK civil service.

There are of course both positives and negatives to leaving, but moving quickly on vaccines is clearly a positive as in this instance time is of the essence.

@wildswim
You really don’t get it do you? Countries in the EU have significant shared interests. Britain is no longer part of that club so they are treated as an outright competitor. The EU has never been about being nice and cuddly. It’s about bringing its member states mutual benefit through mutual standards in business, trade, travel and security cooperation etc Of course it doesn’t want to shit on nonEU nations, but if that’s the only way it can look out for it’s member states that is what it will try to do. The US will literally kill thousands - guilty and innocent alike - to defend the interests of its citizens. And you’re surprised at a bit of EU border export shenanigans????

@Iknowwhatudidlastsummer

The EU is protecting its interest. Why on earth do you think the UK is so special that they should help when UK is very clearly fighting their corner?

It's like expecting a divorcing woman to insist on sharing inheritance or lottery win with her ex instead of her own children, when the ex-husband has already moved on with another woman 😂

Funnily enough I would say that this is exactly like a divorced woman (or man) demanding spousal maintenance, or coming back years after the divorce and demanding more money because the EX has more money.

Some posters salivating at the EU making a great big cock up.

^ But its "another" cock up and another lazy, slow cock up that is going to cost lives, just like the others

So, as I just said, before we altruistically give up vaccine doses, surely some posters would back a Europe-wide consensus on the priority list, otherwise we are removing the vaccine from the vulnerable here to give to a working-from-home bureaucrat in Düsseldorf.

why have German death rates shot up recently. Much worse second wave than the first.

Like everywhere. The death rate is still 680. That's a third of the UK's. They haven't shot up to crazy levels, they're barely catching up with the UK.

And like I said countless times, this is not a competition. We shouldn't be happy about other countries' failures. If we're able to realise the success of the UK vaccination programme, we should also be able to admit other countries have handled this better and will end up with less deaths.