To have become a Brexiteer yesterday?

[Mentum]

I was so Remain, I was devastated when we left. But the EU trying to steal our vac and casually invoking Article 16 has really left me aghast. I can't believe they are lashing out this way, I don't understand why.

This is a big humiliating clusterfuck for the EU and a perfect example of how flawed the EU's integrated economy is. Too many bureaucrats in one room is never a good thing. I'm sure the Ukraine, for example, is thinking, "Fuck. Our hellbent determination to become an EU member is screwing shit up, big time. We could have had the Russian vaccination by now."

But the EU has not tried to steal our vaccinations. That's not what is going on here, though that's the spin we've been presented. In the contract, AZ was manufacturing vaccines in the UK for EU distribution. Ursula VDL has been asking for transparency and honouring of the contract. Still, the EU hadn't fully approved the AZ vaccination... so.. there's that (lots of going back and forth about what age group should get the AZ jab). Do I still think they've behaved like dickheads? Of course I do. Invoking Article 16? Crazy-making, reckless response. They've since wound their collective neck in (regarding the hardening of the Irish border, thank goodness). AND the EU has finally approved the AZ jab (which we'd done here in the UK a fair while back and which is one of the reasons we got our stash before the EU). I mean, common sense tells me that not approving AZ's jab played the biggest role in the EU's shitty rollout. I really, really feel for the Europeans dependent on the EU's rollout to go smoothly. And the people will have lots of questions. Their leaders better have concise answers.

Such are the complexities of geopolitics and (micro) trade wars. It's nothing new. And we'll see more of this, post-Brexit. The EU's interest is not us. Get used to it. Even free trading EU bureaucrats/politicians can't say no to a good old fashioned pissing competition.

@MadCatLady71 except they cannot sue AZ because the contract said that they would do their best to hit the numbers on time but they can’t guarantee it. Why not????? Because the EU signed the deal late.

@Blessex - it’s unlikely the uk would have left procurement solely to the EU if we were still in the EU. Like Germany we would at least also ordered our own supply.

@CayrolBaaaskin but AZ were setting up a completely new supply chain and always said that it would be bumpy and they couldn’t guarantee delivery. We had the same bumpy supply chain for the U.K. but we had a 3 month head start. Why? Because the EU took 3 months longer to sign the deal. They need to acknowledge that and they don’t.

He couldn't get much movement on FOM but then again, we have just invited 5m HK to come to the UK, so obviously immigration isn't a concern.

If you can't see the difference of offering 5m HK the chance to escape a brutal regime with 'immigration not an issue' then you are arguing in very bad faith.

@CayrolBaaaskin Germany have done that behind the EUs backs. It won’t be going down very well.

@Blessex - that’s not true. Best endeavours has a legal meaning and the EU could certainly sue under the contract. It’s also the same obligation as in the UKs contract with Astra Zeneca. What you are saying is misinformation

I'm not buying, at the moment, the whole Article 16 being invoked was a 'mistake', given the last 4 years who makes that sort of 'mistake?'. I think it was all part of the plan over last 72 hours. They thought they had a watertight case with their contract hence they were happy to have it published (at one point even without the redactments) everyone would see how watertight it was and then they would be justified in following through with parts b & c. However contract publishing didn't go quite to plan, they were between a rock and a hard place so went ahead and pursued parts b & c anyway.

The alternative is someone (junior?) within the EU in the heat of the moment, unilaterally, took a decision that Article 16 was an appropriate course of action.

Not sure which one of those is worse to be honest.

@CayrolBaaaskin the Netherlands, Germany, France and Italy tried to do their own deal with AZ on the same timeline as the U.K. The EU took over and spent another 3 months getting the same deal. That would have happened to the U.K. too if Brexit hadn’t have happened.

@CayrolBaaaskin lawyers have poured over that contract and have largely agreed that the EU don’t have a legal leg to stand on.

@CayrolBaaaskin

Also we could have joined their vaccine program out of the EU or not joined it in the EU. It’s not a compulsory part of the EU. So being in or out of the EU made no difference to vaccine procurement for us.

The problem with the EUs program is that they backed the wrong horse. They ordered vaccines that didn’t work out. Nobody knew which would work out in advance. It could just as easily be us in that position.

Some of the posts on here seem almost to suggest pre-destination; no achievement in sport, entertainment or the academic world is down to any quality of the person getting the degree, MBO award, or Olympic medal. They were lucky in choosing running over table-tennis, in studying nights instead of hanging out on Mumsnet...Yeah, I can see it's just luck that I haven't attained any of these accolades.

Here's a Beardy Bloke saying that not joining the EU's vaccine scheme was "'this week's episode of Who Cares if You Die as Long as we Brexit', adding that it showed Brexit to be a 'death cult'." www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9203435/GUY-ADAMS-UK-built-vaccine-triumph-Tory-haters-called-anti-EU-plot.html

@Blessex more misinformation. How can you procure and administer millions of vaccines “behind the back” of the world’s largest trading block.

Are you a journalist? There was no obligation for any EU state to join the joint procurement process nor to join and obtain their own supply.

[quote Blessex]@CayrolBaaaskin lawyers have poured over that contract and have largely agreed that the EU don’t have a legal leg to stand on.[/quote]
I'm not criticising your spelling, since I'm worse, but I like the idea of these people pouring over this. They'd be pissed, I presume?

Let’s put this in context.

You order a pair of shoes in May. Someone else orders a pair of shoes in September. The shoes don’t come into stock until October, therefore the supplier delivers the shoes to the person who ordered them first. This is exactly how the AZ situation has worked.

Aside from which the EU vaccination programme has been an absolute embarrassment from start to finish. They’ve vaccinated around 3 million people over the whole of the EU, whereas we’ve vaccinated almost 9 million. Other countries are in fact talking about leaving the EU off the back of its handling of the COVID crisis and especially the vaccine crisis.

The WHO have taken a very dim view of the EU’s actions:

Coronavirus: WHO criticises EU over vaccine export controls www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55860540

I was a remainer but now I’m glad we’ve left.

Not one government has been able to deal with this pandemic in what people might describe as a perfect way. not one because it was unprecedented, but there is a difference between not locking down and individual citizens still knowing the facts, complaining about no lockdown and then rushing off to meet their friends because “the government says it’s ok,” and not being able to secure vaccines (which weren’t actually authorised until yesterday as it happens,) something which will actually make a difference to this outcome, deciding that if they can’t have them, neither can the rest of the world, and no, it wasn’t only the UK they were trying to block...

Vaccinating low risk UK citizens whilst allowing vulnerable people to go without is repugnant
But it's not a widely held view, most people want the entire uk population vaccinated first

Your damn right we do. Business are failing, homes are being lost, millions have lost their jobs, children are not attending school - we’ve had over a year of this and now some people want to extend that further because other countries were so bound up in bureaucracy that they failed to deliver it to their people swiftly.

I’m sorry but there is a point where you have to start looking after the people y’know your supposed to look after.

“But he put the right people and money behind vaccines. The EU messed it up.”

Yes, simply this. Kate Bingham did an extraordinary job.
Individual member states are becoming more and more disgruntled and demanding to know why their populations are not being vaccinated. The Commission is firing off in all directions, trying to blame everyone and anyone else rather than admitting that it got it wrong. It’s an embarrassing display to watch.

I voted remain and was worried about the U.K. not signing up to EU vaccine procurement. Never been so delighted in my life to have been proven wrong about an issue.

@CayrolBaaaskin but if you are a member of a club then of course you are obliged to toe that clubs line. Come on!!!

@Defaultname - no one can tell the future. We did not know in advance if any of the vaccines would work never mind which ones would and which ones wouldn’t.

@Blessex - yeah except that’s not what happened and several member states got their own supply. Come on yourself.

@Defaultname haha yes - typing too fast!

@CayrolBaaaskin that is absolutely wrong!!!!

@CayrolBaaaskin we had scientists making educated guesses based on early trial results hedging their bets and ordering the right vaccines. That is not pure chance.

@CayrolBaaaskin your analogy is wrong

Even the Guardian article understands current events and telling it how it actually is.

They ordered late and haven’t been involved in cultivating production for their supply lines - the EU need to get to work on that not interrupt our hard work over last three months to smooth production - it isn’t guaranteed delivery ever it is a live product and expertise also needs cultivating.

I linked yesterday to politico article that macron was pressuring eu to go with Sanofi which proved a dud. He also says AZ vaccine is pseudo ....
nationalism. Not a dirty word when said in French apparently.

Defend them all you like but European countries would do better to order their own supply and build up in house expertise rather than wait for blundering drunk dad to return home with supplies from others instead of a plan to ensure own supply and production line -and how to roll it out. They don’t have a plan to roll out to thousands of people a day like we have. They have done nothing to show they understand the momentous task ahead of them .

EU need to work with AZ on the vaccine they only approved yesterday whilst saying it is shit from two big EU countries.

@CayrolBaaaskin the Netherlands, France, Germany and Italy tried to get their own supply and do a deal with AZ and had to them become part of the EU procurement. They didn’t get their own supply. My DH is Dutch. That is partly why they are in the shit they are in. It’s why Spain has had to pause their programme.

DeniseTheMenace I hope Kate Bingham gets every gong and honour available. I thought she was just another crony but now realise how extraordinary she has been.