To have become a Brexiteer yesterday?

[Mentum]

I was so Remain, I was devastated when we left. But the EU trying to steal our vac and casually invoking Article 16 has really left me aghast. I can't believe they are lashing out this way, I don't understand why.

@Mentum

Boris did not cause the deaths the virus did .

Whitty and Boris quite clearly said when they had the news about the variant . Use your common sense . Just because you can meet does not mean you have to .

Every family is different and those with common sense weighed up their risks and took a judgement .

A friend of mine had a heart bypass last year and he was invited with his wife and children to Christmas Day with 4 other families .

He politely refused

In those families was a teacher , and yes they discovered a few days later that she was positive and had spread it to all 4 families .

So not only did THEY decide to do their own thing , they also did not judge the risk of her profession even though it was the main Topic of conversation in briefings

People have very selective hearing when it suits them .

I am watching this fighting over the vaccines with interest. Our Government were proactive in research and investment and securing our order . The fight really should not involve us .

Our government also has invested money in helping the vaccine go to poorer countries overseas .

As we are nearly the highest death rate per 100000 ( not the highest by the way) you would also think it common sense that we would want to retain our supply that was secured legally and above board .

The quicker we get protection the quicker other supplies can help other countries that are next in line if need.

For a change it seems in this area we have done nothing wrong .

@DdraigGoch

then again, we have just invited 5m HK to come to the UK, so obviously immigration isn't a concern. Hong Kong is a former British territory where the populace are now being oppressed by a brutal communist dictatorship. Of course we are right to open our doors to British Nationals in need.

They are not British nationals, in the sense that most people would interpret that, most have never set foot in the UK or even speak english. this idea they are all young professionals is wrong, many are working class, inc very young children, elderly parents.

Its a crazy idea, we do not have the transport housing schools health service etc etc to accommodate up to 5m people.

the very people we should be helping, the young students without BNO status, can't come here.

I doubt you were ever a remainer. No one is trying to steal anything. Astra Zeneca is unable to deliver the EUs vaccine that they ordered. They have challenged that which is understandable. The vaccine is absolutely crucial to public health so I can understand they are challenging that and doing everything they can for their citizens.

This is the reality of being out of the EU. They will pursue the best interests of the EU of which we are not a part.

That is true, but what's also true is that the best interests of one country don't necessarily align with the best interests of the block and the other members.

I still think Brexit was a mistake, because it's a membership in the EU is much bigger than the vaccine episode.

On the other hand this has highlighted the need the to change the way the EU is run.

I have been very disappointed with their ineptitude and bullying.

Sure, Jan.

@Iknowwhatudidlastsummer

The EU is protecting its interest. Why on earth do you think the UK is so special that they should help when UK is very clearly fighting their corner?

It's like expecting a divorcing woman to insist on sharing inheritance or lottery win with her ex instead of her own children, when the ex-husband has already moved on with another woman 😂

It’s not helping or sharing though is it. The U.K. ordered first fuck all to do with EU. The U.K. are not asking for help.

More like some one being stood in a pie shop eyeing up the pies telling the assistant they are going to order a big in a minute... then in comes another customer and buys the last cheese and onion pie and the first customer kicking off because actually they were going to order a cheese and onion pie and hadn’t finished mulling it over!

@CayrolBaaaskin but it is the manner of the challenge that is so aggressive whilst not acknowledging their own part in the problem.

Astra Zeneca is unable to deliver the EUs vaccine that they ordered. They have challenged that which is understandable. The vaccine is absolutely crucial to public health so I can understand they are challenging that and doing everything they can for their citizens.

They have publically challenged it, whilst some countries have attempted to smear it's efficiency, and instead of dealing directly with AZ on what is a contractual issue, they have more or less accused the UK of dodgy dealings and questioned our integrity. Yesterday them invoking article 16 is absolutely astounding, especially as it was such a contensious issue during negotiations, they fully understood the implications of even mentioning it as a possibility. There is a difference between that desperate and bullying behaviour, and following a process which actually would have more legal backing and might have had a better outcome.

Those who didn't trust the EU and voted leave may have saved thousands of lives.
If we were still in the EU its unlikely that 7 million people would have been vaccinated.

But the EU haven’t protected their citizens they’ve behaved like a drunk parent arriving at school demanding their Dc deserves school lunch even though it wasn’t ordered in time - embarrassing for everyone - not the EU citizens’ fault but they must be looking at their crap ‘protector’ and knowing it isn’t fit for purpose after all.

Hiding behind a bully doesn’t make friends round the world.

I can’t imagine many companies thinking hey EU what a great place to set up business anymore.

Retracting any of what they’ve done over last few days won’t work - they’ve exposed themselves like the drunk parent I mentioned above. Will you be letting your dc go round their house or having second thoughts?

@Backbee thankfully our MPs have largely stayed away from the spat. Article 16 was extraordinary. We were busy getting on jabbing our residents, following our legal contracts then boom!

No comment on the rights and wrongs of the EU's actions but I feel strongly that the vaccine should go to the most vulnerable people in all societies first regardless of borders. I understand we want 'our' vaccines now and that a contractual interpretation as such is seen as positive here, but if that means that we are vaccinating healthy 40 year olds here when vulnerable 80 year olds elsewhere have not been vaccinated and we think that is morally right, then I think it says a lot about us as a society. And that what it says isn't positive.

Also we could have joined their vaccine program out of the EU or not joined it in the EU. It’s not a compulsory part of the EU. So being in or out of the EU made no difference to vaccine procurement for us.

The problem with the EUs program is that they backed the wrong horse. They ordered vaccines that didn’t work out. Nobody knew which would work out in advance. It could just as easily be us in that position.

@barretbonden

Why did we think for one minute that the EU would give a shiny shit about the UK after the way we have treated them and what we have said about them?

Yes, every man, woman, and child in the UK deserved to have their botties smacked for being so naughty. Thank you for pointing that out.

@Floppywin But the EU haven’t protected their citizens they’ve behaved like a drunk parent arriving at school demanding their Dc deserves school lunch even though it wasn’t ordered in time - embarrassing for everyone.

Haha yes and then blaming the sober parent who ordered lunch in time and trying to snatch that lunch away from the sober parents child.

Hammonds
oh come on, the "we left the EU and now the EU is mean to us" are so childish!

I thought we left the EU to protect our own interests in the first place?

Seems people thought we could keep all the benefits we had as EU members without any of the negatives!

@CayrolBaaaskin ah but that is where you are wrong. Our experts knew which horses to back from the early results. And they backed quite a few of them too.

CayrolBaaaskin That is wrong. Yes they were unlucky with Sanofi (as we were) but the main problem is they were very late and they tried to get vaccines on the cheap. I read that the UK and US invested 7 times more per person than the EU.

It just seems remarkably juvenile to want the vaccine, and when it is not available to them to say it’s crap. If it’s so useless, why are they making a fuss about getting it? Surely they’d be saying, “Good luck with that, Brits - fill yer boots!” But, no.... Infantile behaviour.

@CayrolBaaaskin and had we not had Brexit the U.K. would have obediently joined the EU programme and done as we are told.

I was always on the fence but classed myself as a remainer because I didn't think we were in a political or economic place to deal with leaving. I still feel that way. The EU have behaved badly, so have we (publicly declaring we will break a legally binding international treaty if we feel like it pretty much prevents us from demanding trusted partner status).

I don't trust this weird populist version of the Tory party to get us through the economic fall out of Brexit (or covid 19) in a way that doesn't further harm the most disadvantaged. I don't trust them not to sign us into agreements that risk the NHS. I would rather we were in a position to influence climate change. We dropped very lucky with the change of US Government but I still think this was the wrong time.

The EU is not trying to steal any vaccines. Astra Zeneca entered into a contract against which they were unable to deliver. Under normal circumstances the EU would just have sued them, but as it is they care more about getting hold of vaccines to which they are legally entitled. I understand absolutely why Johnson doesn’t want vaccines produced in the U.K. to be exported, but the AZ contract with the EU explicitly includes the U.K. vaccine production sites.

The EU are proposing doing exactly the same as Johnson is doing - insisting on their own contracts being honoured before vaccine is exported. Which shouldn’t cause a problem, as Pfizer isn’t having the same supply problems as AZ - especially now that Sanofi are now helping out with production.

Macron’s comments about the AZ vaccine are no different to comments made in Australia the US, where it has also not yet been licensed and they are conducting more testing.

This is all being whipped up into a ridiculous storm by the U.K. media that loves to depict plucky Britain fighting the EU bully. There’s next to nothing about it in Le Monde. It’s just some boring wrangling over contracts - a storm in a teacup, being turned into a drama by the British press.

@IrmaFayLear it’s so transparent it’s embarrassing.

@Backbee - what evidence that anyone actually represents EU has done any of those things?

@Floppywin - no they’re like a parent coming to hospital and asking why the essential medical treatment they paid for is not being delivered.

@ColaandBru

No comment on the rights and wrongs of the EU's actions but I feel strongly that the vaccine should go to the most vulnerable people in all societies first regardless of borders. I understand we want 'our' vaccines now and that a contractual interpretation as such is seen as positive here, but if that means that we are vaccinating healthy 40 year olds here when vulnerable 80 year olds elsewhere have not been vaccinated and we think that is morally right, then I think it says a lot about us as a society. And that what it says isn't positive.

Absolutely.

Vaccinating low risk UK citizens whilst allowing vulnerable people to go without is repugnant.
But it's not a widely held view, most people want the entire uk population vaccinated first.