To have become a Brexiteer yesterday?

[Mentum]

I was so Remain, I was devastated when we left. But the EU trying to steal our vac and casually invoking Article 16 has really left me aghast. I can't believe they are lashing out this way, I don't understand why.

When the dust settles on the vaccines issue
and lockdowns end
then Brits will start to realise what they have lost by leaving the EU
but too late

@whenwillsantagetvaccinated

It was clear *@Tobleronehouses*

Look at clause 5.1 - it says the initial doses come from EU (which implicitly excludes the U.K. - clause 5.4 says that EU only includes the U.K. for the purposes of that clause ONLY). It's just that the EU didn't really understand that this scenario could arise when they entered into the contract - and to be fair, it could easily have been the case that it didn't. I don't think AZ could have said to the EU that the U.K. has priority under the U.K. contract for the U.K. factories, as this would have breached confidentiality provisions to the U.K, but it did attempt to silo production under the contract.

Thanks for the explanation. Will investigate the clauses further!

[quote whenwillsantagetvaccinated]@Tobleronehouses

Well yes the EU are thinking about getting fair supply AS BeTWEEN EU MEMBERS, which is laudable, of course. But if the EU the better contract, you can bet your bottom dollar that it wouldn't have been trying to share with the U.K. quite reasonably, it would have said, you're not a member now. After all, the EU is trying to get its people vaccinated before the rest of the world (every developed country is effectively hogging vaccines and privileging its own) - the EU hasn't given nearly as much to Covax as the U.K. has per capita and the U.K. was responsible for backing Oxford in ensuring that the AZ vaccine was made on a non profit basis, which is a gift to poorer countries. So we can all pay the moral high ground card and say "the other side is just less moral culturally" if we want to [/quote]
Fair enough I still think there are some muddy waters yet to be investigated, but I agree, that there is huge pressure on ALL national governments to be seen to be doing all they can to acquire vaccines.

One of the arguments for remaining was that one of the purposes of the EU was to promote peace in Europe and avoid further wars. If that is the case, it should presumably be attempting to have good relationships with all European countries, not just those in the EU.

Otherwise it is just a neoliberal trade bloc.

How sovereign are those governments?

As sovereign as ours was, setting up fantastic pharma over many decades inc operating within EU rules negotiating the AZ and other contracts.
What we did was open to all other EU countries.

This makes the idea of the commission layer, smothering all sovereign government very clear. It can reach its long arms into anything and do anything

Well, clearly the EC cannot reach its "long arms" into everything, because within a few hours, ROI told them to stop, they then had to retract what they'd tried to do & tell the UK supplies won't be affected.

I think this has been lost on a few posters.

@Stripesnomore

One of the arguments for remaining was that one of the purposes of the EU was to promote peace in Europe and avoid further wars. If that is the case, it should presumably be attempting to have good relationships with all European countries, not just those in the EU.

Otherwise it is just a neoliberal trade bloc.

Good point, imagine no EU and no means to calm tempers as 28 countries, with no commision to deal with, argue with each other and take back vaccine meant for the uk or indeed for anyone else.

Where might that end?

TBF to the EU, once the realised their mistake, quickly rowed back and EC and Mr Johnson spoke about this issue and both agreed to reset relations.

Yes, it might well be positive for us that those other countries remain in the EU if it helps them avoid disputes.

The EU has a contract with AZ that it expects to be fulfilled. It AZ over promised it's their problem to sort. The EU now wants to put checks in place that their contracted suppliers are not shipping elsewhere whilst not meeting their contracts. The rest is a lot of blown up war like headlines from the U.K. press. No one is trying to steal U.K. vaccines. Best Reasonable Effort is a defined term in the AZ contract that actually means more than just, oh not binding, fuck off in Belgian Law.

@Avondklok

The EU has a contract with AZ that it expects to be fulfilled. It AZ over promised it's their problem to sort. The EU now wants to put checks in place that their contracted suppliers are not shipping elsewhere whilst not meeting their contracts. The rest is a lot of blown up war like headlines from the U.K. press. No one is trying to steal U.K. vaccines. Best Reasonable Effort is a defined term in the AZ contract that actually means more than just, oh not binding, fuck off in Belgian Law.

It’s actually quite funny to compare British papers, who have a very jingoistic tone these days, with newspapers in France, Portugal or Germany, who are pretty calm about the whole thing.

The Belgian papers are celebrating that the AZ vaccine is approved with first deliveries next week.

The EU has a contract with AZ that it expects to be fulfilled. It AZ over promised it's their problem to sort.

It is being fulfilled. AZ did not overpromise.
Taking vaccines from the supply chain the UK paid seven times as much for, 3 months earlier would be stealing.

The EU specified a cheaper manufacturing and supply chain solution because they wanted to pay as little as possible for cutting edge technology on the envelope of our capabilities. They did it three months later than the UK. Months ago the UK was having similar issues with their AZ supply. The UK worked through it and didn’t throw a hissy fit deliberately spinning the contract, misleading the public and creating agita on one of Europe’s most sensitive borders.

The EU don't have a contract that promises delivery and from the mouth of the CEO of AZ - and backed up by the EU's contract - he says he was open with EU that he'd already entered into a contractual commitment with UK and all he could offer was best efforts and the contract was clear on that - the UK's wasn't as ambiguous (posted another link to article on Matt Hancock ensuring wording of contract). So there is no doubt the EU are deflecting and I don't think many are falling for it, sure a few die hards on here..but, not in the real world.

Earlier this week AstraZeneca CEO Pascal Soriot was defending his company by explaining they signed up to a “best effort” in the agreement with the EU.

“… we didn’t commit with the EU, by the way. It’s not a commitment we have to Europe: it’s a best effort, we said we are going to make our best effort. The reason why we said that is because Europe at the time wanted to be supplied more or less at the same time as the UK, even though the contract was signed three months later. So we said, “ok, we’re going to do our best, we’re going to try, but we cannot commit contractually because we are three months behind UK”.”

The agreement appears to backs up this interpretation, saying…

“AstraZeneca has committed to use its Best Reasonable Efforts (as defined below) to build capacity to manufacture 300 million Doses of the Vaccine, at no profit and no loss to AstraZeneca, at the total cost currently estimated to be [REDACTED] Euros for distribution within the EU [REDACTED] (the “Initial Europe Doses”), with an option for the Commission, acting on behalf of the Participating Member States, to order an additional 100 million Doses (the “Optional Doses”).”

And goes on to define Best Reasonable Efforts as meaning:

“(a) in the case of AstraZeneca, the activities and degree of effort that a company of similar size with a similarly-sized infrastructure and similar resources as AstraZeneca would undertake or use in the development and manufacture of a Vaccine at the relevant stage of development or commercialization having regard to the urgent need for a Vaccine to end a global pandemic"

It depends what is in the U.K. contract and if they have a "most favoured customer clause" or similar.

The U.K. is wanting to protect its position, the EU is trying to protect theirs.

My family live in Belgium and my parents haven’t had their vaccinations yet but hoping to do so soon now that it has been approved.

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/29/we-had-to-go-it-alone-how-the-uk-got-ahead-in-the-covid-vaccine-race

Not exactly a right wind paper....

@Avondklok

If there wasn't a priority clause over the U.K. factory in the U.K. contract, AZ would be taking a different approach. If the contracts were both like the EU one, AZ might be trying to deliver to all equally.

They aren't doing this for fun - they will have got legal advice even before the EU realised this could be an issue.

[quote Cam77]@wildswim
You really don’t get it do you? Countries in the EU have significant shared interests. Britain is no longer part of that club so they are treated as an outright competitor. The EU has never been about being nice and cuddly. It’s about bringing its member states mutual benefit through mutual standards in business, trade, travel and security cooperation etc Of course it doesn’t want to shit on nonEU nations, but if that’s the only way it can look out for it’s member states that is what it will try to do. The US will literally kill thousands - guilty and innocent alike - to defend the interests of its citizens. And you’re surprised at a bit of EU border export shenanigans????[/quote]
Eh? How was the EU looking out for its member state ROI when it invoked Article 16? It has been called an 'incendiary move' and a 'hostile act' by leaders across the British Isles. It was an international humiliation for the Irish prime minister and his government!

If you think that one
comparatively minor
contract dispute
will balance out the damage of Brexit
have fun

minor?

@marbellamarc

minor?

This isn't even news in Europe.

It's certainly news for my European family. The whole vaccine fuck up

I'm also pretty sure Article 16 made the news in ROI

marbella
give it 3 months and that 3 hour blip on a Friday night will be a sub footnote

Brexit on the other hand

I keep seeing this isn't news in europe ( often same posters) yet others say their families in europe are aware.
Im sure some europeans also read non eu papers/ news outlets .
It won't be as big a news obviously

Its not just a 3 hr blip is it
The people of europe want vaccinations as well so that is also what will be remembered .
Will they now think things like this are better done country by country