To have become a Brexiteer yesterday?

[Mentum]

I was so Remain, I was devastated when we left. But the EU trying to steal our vac and casually invoking Article 16 has really left me aghast. I can't believe they are lashing out this way, I don't understand why.

Donewith
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55786974
or
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54377749
or
www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-trade-eu-business-regulations-dit-defra-b1791944.html
or
www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/23/brexit-hit-firms-advised-government-officials-set-up-shop-in-eu

@Tobleronehouses - they didn't invest early in the infrastructure, equipment, training of staff etc - but now want all the benefit of the early UK work. They put an order in without a nod to the hard work to run a smooth delivery line.

They paid a cheaper price and when vaccine approved (yesterday - same week saying they don't think it works very well) they weren't ready to up and go and will need to work over the first quarter (like we did) to achieve optimum output.

India are working with AZ to get vaccine there, not demanding vaccines from the UK supply line.

Mainly if you're 3 months behind, you're 3 months behind. They still haven't put an order in for the Novovax - we are second in line for that when/if starts production/approval. EU still negotiating on that...possibly same scenario will play out with that vaccine one day.

@Justthebeerlighttoguide

I would think this is all very good for The UK. We have a bio-medical research triangle from Cambridge to Oxford to London. Many, many firms base themselves in this area as a cluster because there is a deep pool of suitable employees, academic support, and big London hospitals for field research and help with trials. The EU’s shenanigans just make locating here look even better.

@Empressofthemundane - also the excellent scientists at UEA.

I'm thinking of any companies basing themselves in the eu... I would certainly think twice after this debacle!

Sensitive private contracts just blurted out, incompetence at commission level generally and then rash, deeply reckless triggering of major sensitive political manoeuvres which were apparently made in error

@Listeningquietly thanks , upon reading though it says this is not goverment advice ? And this could go other way, if you are an eu country with a lot of trade in uk could you not do the same?
The headline reads a little different to the whole story ( typical media) .
We have to see how it plays out , but many a company have offices in different countries .
I personally don't read it quite the same as some are portraying it.

[quote Floppywin]@Tobleronehouses - they didn't invest early in the infrastructure, equipment, training of staff etc - but now want all the benefit of the early UK work. They put an order in without a nod to the hard work to run a smooth delivery line.

They paid a cheaper price and when vaccine approved (yesterday - same week saying they don't think it works very well) they weren't ready to up and go and will need to work over the first quarter (like we did) to achieve optimum output.

India are working with AZ to get vaccine there, not demanding vaccines from the UK supply line.

Mainly if you're 3 months behind, you're 3 months behind. They still haven't put an order in for the Novovax - we are second in line for that when/if starts production/approval. EU still negotiating on that...possibly same scenario will play out with that vaccine one day.[/quote]
Yes but aren't contracts of this magnitude very carefully negotiated? Presumably all.of those things such as investing in the infrastructure and equipment etc would have been taken in to account when AZ agreed to supply the EU? If the UK had first shout at the products, that presumably would have been explicit in the contracts? As would the negotiated cost? Surely it all comes down to contractual details; and if they are (incorrectly) unclear, they will be open to different interpretations by different parties?

Yes, Oxbridge are not the only ones fit sure, just trying to “draw” the rough triangle fir people. Also scientists in London unis.

It’s one of the world’s best clusters for this stuff. We are so fortunate to have it and the EU’s moment of madness just makes it more attractive.

Before the pandemic, there was a lot of excitement about small start ups I’m the cluster marrying biology and physics to create breakthroughs in ways that are far beyond understanding.

Sorry, lots of typos.

donewith
If you are a company that has spent the last 30 years trading within the single market to residents of the countries inside the EU
and you meet with a DFID adviser who cannot give any answers
what would you do ?

justthe
The EU bollocksed up by publishing that contract in full
but how many companies have contracts with the Commission rather than with other companies or sovereign governments within the continent

@Tobleronehouses

I understand that the U.K. committed £300m last summer for the fitting out of the U.K. factory and paid up the whole amount straight away on the understanding that vaccine would go to the U.K. whilst the EU was still haggling for a couple of months. I mean, if you enter into a contract with two building firms, they might make the same amount of profit (in this case, none), but could build you a totally different range of houses if you gave them a different specification and budget. The U.K. said "we want something brilliant at great speed and will pay for it" and the EU said "we don't want any risk on liabilities and we want to pay as little as possible" - irrespective of profit, which building is going to go up quicker and better?!

Lots of posters seem to be missing the understanding that AZ are setting up dedicated production facilities for each contract, to avoid any confusion about where the output should go. The EU's later order meant that their dedicated manufacturing facility was started to be built later. They are still working through the teething problems in scaling those facilities up, though benefitting from the earlier troubleshooting done for the UK.

How sovereign are those governments?. This makes the idea of the commission layer, smothering all sovereign government very clear. It can reach its long arms into anything and do anything.

They have not only published confidential information they have tarnished the reputation of az by implying its renegaded on a contact and can't deliver.

If you believe bbc looks like things are on better terms for now.
Everyone sees the negatives but there is also a chance that both sides see ways of working together better long term, in short term there will always be hiccups.
Lets hope concentration and effort is now just put in to help manufacturing , sharing data (as uk will be one of the countries able to give more real time on az etc ) and all moving forward to try and beat the virus , as the virus doesn't care where anyone lives or who's side they are on.

@Empressofthemundane - yes I was optimistic before pandemic for UK's future in scientific research and development - family member a biochemist etc

I can't imagine anyone risking EU over UK now. Shot themselves in foot and exposed how slow they are to react/adapt at anything.

Can someone help me understand this? Novavax is an American company so technically those vaccines belong to Novavax/USA? No? Also there are novavax locations in the EU so they could just roll out the product over there too!! Or am I completely misunderstanding??

@marbellamarc

It's like people expected Brexit to happen an no retaliation from the EU to follow, ever.

So it is retaliation then?

Revenge, like a vaccine, is best served cold.

@sabitchy

Well, Novovax owns the technology.

It will licence that to a producer or work together with one, or use its own capacity to produce the vaccines, depending on what its position is. Once the producer has entered into a contract with a purchaser then IF if can produce the vaccine, it is committed to give it to the purchaser (or to multiple purchasers, in the priority of the relevant contracts)

Yes whenwillsantagetvaccinated I totally understand that, and agree, that on the surface this all looks very logical. And genuinely - bravo to the UK for their investment etc. But what I am asking is, why wasn't the priority of delivery made explicit in the contract with the EU? Why was it a surprise to them? (We have only seen the EU contact with AZ haven't we, not the UK one.) There shouldn't be any surprises in a contract of that size surely? That would suggest that perhaps there has been some muddying of the waters going on?

The EU and the UK are not the only customers of AZ .What would be the position if God forbid there is a production issue in the UK factory?

Finally I think , given the nature of the people involved (prepared to be told I am entirely wrong about this) but its surprising that the UK government have been relatively quiet on the subject isn't it? Or am I reading too much in to it?

Tbh I think "cultural issues" are at play here too. The UK is rightly thinking of its own people and vaccinating them as quickly as possible. The EU is thinking from a broader/wider perspective from the collective viewpoints of all its members. I agree that the EU don't have the right expertise to negotiate what are business contracts but they are perhaps more aware that a global.pandemic, requires global cooperative solutions because we are all interdependent on one another, for health and economic success. So this isn't about a race to be the first country to get vaccinated, its a race to get a roughly fair share proportionally distributed out of the supplies available.

@DevonorLondon

Lots of posters seem to be missing the understanding that AZ are setting up dedicated production facilities for each contract, to avoid any confusion about where the output should go. The EU's later order meant that their dedicated manufacturing facility was started to be built later. They are still working through the teething problems in scaling those facilities up, though benefitting from the earlier troubleshooting done for the UK.

That is indeed interesting. Is that made clear in the contract though?

Since AZ isn’t making a profit, there was no “fat” for the EU to negotiate out. They went straight to the bone.

The EU essentially requested a lower specification to meet their target price. And they did this three months later.

It’s important to understand that they weren’t writing a contract for vaccines so much as writing a contract for AZ to set up a manufacturing facility for them and a supply chain for them with a particular design capacity. AZ is now struggling to meet the EU’s desired effective capacity. You can’t just flick a switch and have a factory running at high utilisation rates. AZ is only just learning to make this stuff.

It was clear @Tobleronehouses

Look at clause 5.1 - it says the initial doses come from EU (which implicitly excludes the U.K. - clause 5.4 says that EU only includes the U.K. for the purposes of that clause ONLY). It's just that the EU didn't really understand that this scenario could arise when they entered into the contract - and to be fair, it could easily have been the case that it didn't. I don't think AZ could have said to the EU that the U.K. has priority under the U.K. contract for the U.K. factories, as this would have breached confidentiality provisions to the U.K, but it did attempt to silo production under the contract.

Basically, EU wanted to buy Vaccines from AZ. They didn't want to pay the at cost price, so the only way to cut costs is to cut production costs. They deliberately penny pinched on the supply and manufacturing process. They also wanted the same delivery schedule as the UK, but AZ said, well the UK has invested more money into it and started three months prior to you (EU), there's no way we can guarantee that. We can promise to do our best to meet your requirements but can not guarantee it. Contracts are drawn up and both parties sign.

AZ have said they cannot meet demand to EU right now but are working hard to rectify the situation.

The EU start demanding UK factories meet their shortfall. (This is pretty impossible without our vaccinations coming to a standstill).

This is fuck all to do with us. We've done nothing wrong (this time), brexit or not the EC is very very wrong here.

The fact that the EC feel they have the right to seize goods intended for the UK is a breach of several agreements.

Why would you even become a brexiteer!!!!!!????? This is wrong and we should REMAINS IN THE EU due to trade deals that are critical to our health and well-being you utter buffoon

@Tobleronehouses

Well yes the EU are thinking about getting fair supply AS BeTWEEN EU MEMBERS, which is laudable, of course. But if the EU the better contract, you can bet your bottom dollar that it wouldn't have been trying to share with the U.K. quite reasonably, it would have said, you're not a member now. After all, the EU is trying to get its people vaccinated before the rest of the world (every developed country is effectively hogging vaccines and privileging its own) - the EU hasn't given nearly as much to Covax as the U.K. has per capita and the U.K. was responsible for backing Oxford in ensuring that the AZ vaccine was made on a non profit basis, which is a gift to poorer countries. So we can all pay the moral high ground card and say "the other side is just less moral culturally" if we want to