To have become a Brexiteer yesterday?

[Mentum]

I was so Remain, I was devastated when we left. But the EU trying to steal our vac and casually invoking Article 16 has really left me aghast. I can't believe they are lashing out this way, I don't understand why.

@marbellamarc

Isn't it just cost price?

Yes but clearly the pricing of these products is more complicated than saying not for profit = single price only.

[quote Blessex]@Bluethrough and we have to have some critical thinking on our deaths

• obesity
• BAME percentage
• population density
• how we count COVID deaths
• transparency on numbers

Etc etc[/quote] All total speculation and applies to many countries. No country is going to want to add to its toll is it? We lowered ours by around 12% last year by counting differently.

Can anyone please explain why we have the brightest and best scientists in the UK? Is it that we attract the brightest academics in the world or are they home grown having attended top private schools?

@marbellamarc

which I assume would fluctuate. I used to work in buying we could have 2 pairs of the exact same jeans but if one was made in Turkey & one in Egypt the cost would be different.

Yes but presumably there are many more variables to determining a price than simply production costs?

[quote Blessex]@Bluethrough maybe cos the EU hadn’t even signed the vaccine off so they prioritised those that had. I mean put yourself in that job[/quote]
Exactly my point!
No matter if the EU had ordered 3 months earlier and approved a month earlier, there is only so much vaccine they can produce, only so many people, equipment, raw materials.

Yes but presumably there are many more variables to determining a price than simply production costs?

logistics is a big one usually.

If the WHO a can get world leaders together and discuss this like adults it would seem sensible to start directing vaccines to the countries with highest death rates per 100000 . And last time I checked the uk was around 4 th or 5th ( although I am sure some countries are not reporting figures accurately )

The uk have already said they have been investing in getting vaccines to some of the poorest countries and hopefully once our highest risk section are covered we will be FREE to distribute the uk manufactured vaccines where we see fit , or at least help financially to make sure they get where they are needed .

I voted remain by the way .

And the way I see it at the moment with brexit is nothing is black and white and there are good things happening and some bad .

Bit like life really .

@Tobleronehouses

There are normally still price variations for any product dependant on scale and overheads .

But with a vaccine I am not sure they should have tried to get a lower price personally .waste of time .

@LasPingPong

Can anyone please explain why we have the brightest and best scientists in the UK? Is it that we attract the brightest academics in the world or are they home grown having attended top private schools?

I'd like to know this too. Doesn't add up with us being such a shit country, with such a poor education system and who is the laughing stock of the world...

re. at for cost non-profit medicine :

EU misjudged and decided pricing for vaccines is all important during a pandemic (ie. stupid decision as lockdowns are catastrophically expensive). EU wanted good deals for their special "bloc" on vaccines (that is all Covid vaccines, including the non-profit AZ one they're having the tantrum about).

EU are still too slow at negotiating vaccine deals. We have orders in for Novovax for instance and they are still negotiating. I think we're second in line for that vaccine - will we demand we be put ahead of the first order and act like the EU?

Our gov have taken view that any money exploring vaccines is the only way out of this for the world - pricing is for another day ie. judged that bit correctly.

see attached Guardian article:
However, the EU approach came with strings. The Commission, negotiating for the first time on vital medicines, felt that EU countries would demand value for money, so it dragged out the talks to secure better prices and product liability guarantees. That meant it signed the contracts with AstraZeneca in August, three months after the UK’s contract.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/27/eu-vaccine-bust-up-astrazeneca

@HmmSureJan what?????

@Unsure33

If the WHO a can get world leaders together and discuss this like adults it would seem sensible to start directing vaccines to the countries with highest death rates per 100000 . And last time I checked the uk was around 4 th or 5th ( although I am sure some countries are not reporting figures accurately )

The uk have already said they have been investing in getting vaccines to some of the poorest countries and hopefully once our highest risk section are covered we will be FREE to distribute the uk manufactured vaccines where we see fit , or at least help financially to make sure they get where they are needed .

I voted remain by the way .

And the way I see it at the moment with brexit is nothing is black and white and there are good things happening and some bad .

Bit like life really .

Christ I’d say. My dd lives in Dubai and it’s really bad there. There are zero restrictions and every one is just living life - until they get covid

@HmmSureJan what the actual fuck are you talking about

Only so much vaccine?

It's being rolled out in India etc - it's not that there's only so much - there's only so much expertise, equipment that needs to be in the right place etc - ie. re-purposing the Sanofi site to produce a different vaccine in France (Pfizer) is taking 3-4 months.

So the EU should have been using time creating more sites and commitment to the vaccine they are saying is rubbish rather than wasting time negotiating a price for something they say is ineffective. Mixed signals or what?

This is the EU acting in good faith? Undermining a vaccine the same week they say they want it NOW after dallying 3 months longer on price etc for an at cost vaccine which that had a vision to role out to poorer countries.

@HmmSureJan if you live here. And it seems you do. Just fuck the fuck off to the multiple countries who have a better education system and are not laughing stocks. That makes my blood boil that you are still here.

Blessex

Looks like sarcasm to me.

Ah sorry. Yes. Sorry.

@HmmSureJan have now read it correctly. Swift apologies

@FOJN

Blessex

Looks like sarcasm to me.

Indeed it was.

@Blessex

It's ok . I'm always quite when I see or hear it being said too, seen it hundreds of times here on MN over the past few years.

@HmmSureJan sorry x

Why would you mass produce any product for a customer before the order has officially been placed? Especially when they have a contract which states the customer will not pay in full until all the product is delivered. The UK paid upfront.

It's not like making biscuits, vaccines are complicated. You have to grow culture and just like growing anything else the quality and quantity depends on so many variables.

Do you know how the EU managed to get a not for profit vaccine cheaper? They didn't invest as much in the manufacturing process as everyone else. So you cut costs, less skilled employees, lesser quality equipment, etc and then wonder why it's not going as smoothly as someone who invested a lot more money.

The fact is that each party (country/organisation) is responsible for setting up the facilities needed to produce the vaccine. So the UK sets up their own system and pays for it. India already had a lot of the necessary requirements so they didn't need to spend as much. That cost is calculated as a cost per basis. The EU haggled on the cost, knowing they were already behind and are now surprised they're still behind. Idiots!

HmmSureJan Blessex

Wow, a reasonable resolution to a misunderstanding.

Have either of you thought of offering dispute resolution services to the EU, they could use some help.

The EU are monstrous bullies - as well as being monumentally incompetent. And I say that as someone who would have loved to have stayed in the EU, but ultimately couldn't look past their unfair behaviour.

@Blessex

will try not to get on the wrong side of you lol!