To have become a Brexiteer yesterday?

[Mentum]

I was so Remain, I was devastated when we left. But the EU trying to steal our vac and casually invoking Article 16 has really left me aghast. I can't believe they are lashing out this way, I don't understand why.

@UrAWizHarry

The EUnis looking after it's interests. If you think this is shocking then maybe stop being so naive, eh? We aren't in the club anymore and we acted like fucking children when we finally left, so what do people expect?

It’s not the U.K. fault the EU dragged their feet. We are nothing to do with the EU now so why we allow them to bully us?

The EU are acting like an abuse ex partner

That was meant to say COVAX not covad.

People warned this would happen if U.K. left EU, and it was called Project Fear.
It wasn’t in context of vaccines for a pandemic, as that would have been thought of as too extreme. It was simply a warning that EU export/import controls would apply after Brexit and the EU could close literally close its borders to imports/exports with U.K.whenever they want in matters of security. It was laughed at and called Project Fear with a dose of “they need our products more than we need theirs”

So, YABU to go to Brexiteer stance because it is that very stance that has caused the predicament. If UK had not left EU, this could not have happened.

@amusedtodeath1

From various statements made between AZ and EU and reading the contract it seems to have gone like this.

EU to AZ we would like to buy XXX amount of your not for profit vaccine please.

AZ - ok that will be XXX cost.

EU - we don't want to pay that much

AZ - well as it's for cost the only thing we could do would be to "compromise" on the manufacturing and supply process to cut costs.

EU - okay we'll do that, but we want to be on the same delivery schedule as the UK.

AZ - erm...we would like to do that for you but the UK are investing more in their supply and manufacturing process so theirs will probably be more efficient and they started this process three months prior to yours. So we cannot guarantee that, we will try our best to meet your requirements but we have previous commitments and therefore can only promise you our best try.

EU - ok have the contracts drawn up.

EU - signs contract.

AZ - we're having some trouble getting the plants upto speed you won't get as many vaccines as you would like but we're working really hard to rectify this.

EU - we want UK manufactured supplies instead then.

AZ - but they're for the UK.

EU - Completely loses their sanity and blames the UK.

Fuck all to do with us.

Yup

@ Pinkcanoftan - difference is you’re ‘staunch’ remainer and weighing things up. Open minded and thinking for yourself, reacting to new information etc

For lots (see Carol) it’s a religious zeal and blindness - they can’t change their mind ion anything EU - rigid thinkers, best to stay away from the shiny eye brigade talking of how the corporate types at EU really care about the citizens. Ask Greece. Ask Macron why they invested so heavily in Sanofi.
Anything rather than take responsibility, best bit of EU is no-one to actually take responsibility for anything.

@Floppywin - where did I "insist AZ were wrong"? What do you even mean by that?

As I said, the EU have a good case but I am not an expert on Belgian law and I don't know how a court would decide. I can also see AZ analysis of the contract. But I don't think your clear cut interpretation of the situation is in any way justified in law or in fact. What is your expertise on this contract and Belgian law?

But the EU ordering later is irrelevant and claims of "stealing our vaccines" is just nonsense.

As I said above, they did back the wrong horse with Sanofi. Noone knew which vaccines would work or indeed if any would work. It was bad luck really. However, the EU procurement has meant that some small countries do have access to some vaccines where otherwise they might not have had any. For example, Ireland. Some small countries have been able to order their own as well though like Romania.

Surely if the EU had got their act together faster, spread their vaccines bets & spent more this wouldn't have happened?

@Floppywin - how so religious zeal or blindness? Blindness to what? Not to the facts that's for sure. Or to the law.

YABU for ever having thought they were different.

@PlanDeRaccordement

People warned this would happen if U.K. left EU, and it was called Project Fear. It wasn’t in context of vaccines for a pandemic, as that would have been thought of as too extreme. It was simply a warning that EU export/import controls would apply after Brexit and the EU could close literally close its borders to imports/exports with U.K.whenever they want in matters of security. It was laughed at and called Project Fear with a dose of “they need our products more than we need theirs”

So, YABU to go to Brexiteer stance because it is that very stance that has caused the predicament. If UK had not left EU, this could not have happened.

No it wouldn’t have happened and my grandparents wouldn’t have already had their vaccines either and there wouldnt be the effects of the vaccine bringing down infection rates either.

So for me personally it was worth it.

@Floppywin - please do provide some detailed factual and/or legal analysis with reference to Belgian law. I am happy and even keen to discuss if you have that.

Thanks!

I voted remain and would again in a heartbeat.

Regarding the vaccine - the EU fucked up and are trying to fix their mistake by forcing the UK to give up its vaccines when we, technically, are "ahead" in the queue (yes, I know its more complicated than that). They (as in the various heads of government) are also trying to win back some good PR with their own electorate by blaming the UK for being intransigent. This is actually very easy since the UK has spent the past few years being intransigent and unreasonable. This time howver, for once, we are not. But politicians will always act like politicians.

The contract issues were heavily discussed on other threads yesterday, take a look.

please do provide some detailed factual and/or legal analysis with reference to Belgian law.

Is this in reference to the contracts. No one knows the answer, isn't it an issue of interpretation?

Noone knew which vaccines would work or indeed if any would work. It was bad luck really.

I disagree. If you read all the early data, buy a lot of different vaccines, focussing on the most promising ones, you can’t really say it is just “luck” to have early access to a successful one. Some member states wanted to do the same as the UK (ie sign an earlier agreement with AZ) but instead chose to allow the EU to take over the procurement process. That wasn’t bad luck, it was a bad decision.

Noone knew which vaccines would work or indeed if any would work. It was bad luck really.

I would be pissed at the gov if they made this mistake. You spread your bets & lower your risk.

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@Floppywin - where did I "insist AZ were wrong"? What do you even mean by that?

As I said, the EU have a good case but I am not an expert on Belgian law and I don't know how a court would decide. I can also see AZ analysis of the contract. But I don't think your clear cut interpretation of the situation is in any way justified in law or in fact. What is your expertise on this contract and Belgian law?

But the EU ordering later is irrelevant and claims of "stealing our vaccines" is just nonsense.

As I said above, they did back the wrong horse with Sanofi. Noone knew which vaccines would work or indeed if any would work. It was bad luck really. However, the EU procurement has meant that some small countries do have access to some vaccines where otherwise they might not have had any. For example, Ireland. Some small countries have been able to order their own as well though like Romania.[/quote]
It’s not nonsense if they go in and seize an order that’s already been paid for by the U.K.

It’s not just the vaccines they are threatening to invoke article 122 which would allow them to seize all intellectual property from AZ and other big pharma.

They are acting like despots

Indeed - bad decisions, not bad luck.

As I said above, they did back the wrong horse with Sanofi. Noone knew which vaccines would work or indeed if any would work. It was bad luck really

It's not as simple as pure 'bad luck'. There was a degree of luck involved but it wasn't a case of throwing balls up in the air and if you got the right one, good for you. Vaccine production started a year ago and within a few months, experts could make educated guesses about which were more likely to be promising. The EU didnt back Sanofi becuase they thought it was a good candidate. They did so under pressure from the plonker Macron. And now they're stuck with it.

Also, you can't blame 'bad luck' for the very tardy and inefficient EU procurement and approvals process. They dragged their heels big time. That's not luck. That's inefficiency.

However, the EU procurement has meant that some small countries do have access to some vaccines where otherwise they might not have had any. For example, Ireland.

Why would Ireland not have had any vaccines? How do you think small countries outside the EU are getting vaccines?

Some small countries have been able to order their own as well though like Romania.

Romania has 19 million people, so I wouldn't call it 'small'. And under EU rules, they will not have been allowed to order any vaccines which the EU had a deal to procure. Ireland asked if the AZ vaccine could be sent to them in advance of the snail's pace EU approval process so they could administer it as soon as possible, but the EU refused even that.

The EU is acting like a competing state. Brexit caused this row. The mock outrage over this is hilarious.

Floppywin

Thanks, I'm feeling a bit stunned tbh. Seeing it with a cold eye now.

The EU is acting like a competing state.

I wouldn't call it competing but why are they asking for UK solidarity if they do want to compete?

@marbellamarc

It's like people expected Brexit to happen an no retaliation from the EU to follow, ever.

So it is retaliation then?

It's a consequence. The EU look after their own. We are no longer their own. Life outside is cold and hard. That's why so many other European countries want in.

Every time the EU wants something they'll take it because they can. That's the privilege of being a superpower (god knows we don't have a leg to stand on bleating about that being wrong). Now we are no longer one of them we will be one of the taken from, not one of the takers. That was the choice leavers made.

I didn't vote remain out of a belief in the EU being perfect. I voted remain because I knew which side our bread was buttered.

So the EU have cocked up here? It still doesn't mean brexit is going well, will go well or was a good idea.

The leavers clinging to this one act as proof that voting to remove our FOM, put up trade barriers and leave this shower of shite govt in complete control of our environmental and food regulations and workers rights is just desperate and sad.

Yes, the EU have done badly with the vaccine and triggering article 16 was a bad move. It is however a move that was rescinded immediately because member state Ireland said 'no' ... because member states can stand up to the rest of the EU and get what they want. As could we before we decided to leave.

Us being out of the SM and the harm to our economy and our standing on the world stage is going to last a lot longer than covid.

In two weeks time, no one will remember this happened. We'll still have a shitty trade deal and poor long term prospects, though.

The EU look after their own

They are not though. My mum was vaccinated 2 wks ago here. My dad more vulnerable still waiting.

And I'm not sure how all their posturing will secure a vaccine for my dad any sooner.