To have become a Brexiteer yesterday?

[Mentum]

I was so Remain, I was devastated when we left. But the EU trying to steal our vac and casually invoking Article 16 has really left me aghast. I can't believe they are lashing out this way, I don't understand why.

[quote Blessex]@CayrolBaaaskin it was triggered and then withdrawn after the Irish PM quite rightly said ‘what the actual fuck’. Whether technically done or not the damage is done.[/quote]
I can actually hear the Irish pm saying that in my head as I read it

@Blessex as I said I don’t think that’s true. It was a proposal that was withdrawn after a few hours.

Can you provide some evidence for your claim it was?

I just hope someone out of all the international governments involved has actually offered to HELP the drug companies making the vaccine. Clearly the tech & personnel involved are v.v.v. specialised but at least trying to help overcome their rate limiting issues would be more productive than just shouting & threatening them. It's like flogging a dead horse right now.

We have not had the empty supermarkets and shortages as warned,

Off topic but the preppers must be mad.

@CayrolBaaaskin but what does it matter whether it actually happened or not. The point is it was triggered and then was withdrawn. Diplomatically that is not a good look.

@marbellamarc

We have not had the empty supermarkets and shortages as warned,

Off topic but the preppers must be mad.

I have to consider that the people who voted leave had better judgement than me. That’s the magic of democracy. All of us know more than any one of us. And the majority opinion was better than the minority opinion in this case

Thank you for this @Empressofthemundane and also to @Mentum and those who have been honest enough to have said they have changed their minds. Changing one's s mind is a sign of intellectual strength, not weakness.

The EUnis looking after it's interests. If you think this is shocking then maybe stop being so naive, eh? We aren't in the club anymore and we acted like fucking children when we finally left, so what do people expect?

@marbellamarc

We have not had the empty supermarkets and shortages as warned,

Off topic but the preppers must be mad.

Do you think people having a vaccine are mad? They might never get the disease after all.

so what do people expect?

To admit they were slow with the vaccines & will do better rather than invoking Article 16. I want my European family to get their vaccine.

@Thelnebriati ?

Carol - you don’t understand bigger pictures clearly and vaccine production in a pandemic - it isn’t a buy off shelf product and you have narrow vision.

The contract issue has been discussed extensively yesterday so not repeating for your benefit - but you are very rigid in your thinking and unable to grasp anything beyond a contract is. the reality of development, production and delivery in a pandemic.

The EU are at fault and your insistence that AZ are wrong despite best efforts in production of a not for profit vaccine intended for world use is distasteful.

EU spent three months trying to get a better price as a bloc from a not for profit vaccine.

If situation was reversed and Sanofi had been viable then EU would have had in their contract that they supply EU first.

Would you stick up for the UK saying hey that’s not fair gives us our Sanofi order. No, we would grasp that EU had a prior contract with sanofi and under contract to supply EU first.

EU time better spent making friends and getting sites prepared for manufacture - problems arise all the time with production - contract law understands and reflects that.

A big problem during the whole Brexit debate was the lack of reliable information and understanding about the EU and how it works. It is a supernational organisation - a group of countries. It can't bully anyone or force anyone to do anything.

Its ridiculous to suggest the EU bullied Greece, some member states lent them a huge amount of money which noone else would at the time (lend them that amount - there were other international lenders). Of course there were conditions on that. This was not formally a part of the EU treaties either it was negotiated by various member states.

Its really worrying that misinformation and nationlistic nonsense like "stealing our vaccines" has flared up like this. It seems to be that it is fuelled by the right wing press. I think a bit of education and fair and objective analysis of the situation would really help a lot of people.

That being said, I think that there are a lot of hard line Brexiteers who have just been dying to spew their irrational nonsense. So unfortunately they are taking this opportunity.

article 16 was never triggered and it was just a proposal which was withdrawn after a few hours

They were playing silly buggers with the peace process and that is reckless. Calling it “just a proposal” is disingenuous.

Brexiteers voted selfishly, now let the EU be selfish, they owe us nothing

Actually I agree they owe us nothing, but then by the same principle they're entitled to nothing, and that includes our vaccines (usual caveat about as yet unseen prior agreements, etc)

It's just a bit amusing to see them defended for behaving like disappointed toddlers - after all weren't they said to be "the only adults in the room"?

I do think some preppers will be angry that they have spent so much time & effort prepping for the pandemic & Brexit & now they have to try & get through a lot of food. Are you a prepper @Thelnebriati?

It's like people expected Brexit to happen an no retaliation from the EU to follow, ever.

Not sure stay or you'll get a punishment beating is a compelling argument. I think that kind of behaviour is generally called extortion, it's worrying you seem quite comfortable with that.

@Floppywin EU spent three months trying to get a better price as a bloc from a not for profit vaccine.

This is the thing that is most distasteful. They are no longer crowing they got the vaccine at a cheaper price. And also not paying into the COVAD effort proportionally.

Calling it “just a proposal” is disingenuous.

They backed down because it was a stupid move.

Its a crazy idea, we do not have the transport housing schools health service etc etc to accommodate up to 5m people.

You really think the entire population of HK is going to empty out and every single man, woman and child will move to Britain?

Plus, they can't just up sticks and head to London on a whim. They have to apply for visas, which may or may not be granted, and Britain can rescind the offer any time it likes. Not at all the same thing as having open borders with half a billion people.

And also not paying into the COVAD effort proportionally.

Yes this is bad particularly when complaining about solidarity.

I think it’s hard for some people to understand that for the majority of people when it comes to politics they are not staunch anything. They just look at the words and ACTIONS of politicians and try to work out the best for their personal circumstances. Hence why When DH told me about the border issues this morning I was agog.

I’ve been caught in the middle of family battles of Brexit and Remain for the last 4 years or so and tbh I just hope this stops all the nasty comments from the remain elements in our family. They have gone spectacularly quiet on the FB chat. And for the first time in god knows forever I feel proud and fortunate to be British and that my elderly relatives have had their first doses of the vaccine and I’m due mine in a week or two (CEV).

I just hope that the leave/remain camps can use this as an opportunity to heal rifts and move on together, because it looks like we are facing some challenging times post pandemic.

Oh and the Belgian PM has also stopped saying that we are guinea pigs and discrediting the MHRA approval. Macron is still willy waving about the efficacy of AZ but hopefully people in this country will see through that and it won’t slow down vaccine uptake.

From various statements made between AZ and EU and reading the contract it seems to have gone like this.

EU to AZ we would like to buy XXX amount of your not for profit vaccine please.

AZ - ok that will be XXX cost.

EU - we don't want to pay that much

AZ - well as it's for cost the only thing we could do would be to "compromise" on the manufacturing and supply process to cut costs.

EU - okay we'll do that, but we want to be on the same delivery schedule as the UK.

AZ - erm...we would like to do that for you but the UK are investing more in their supply and manufacturing process so theirs will probably be more efficient and they started this process three months prior to yours. So we cannot guarantee that, we will try our best to meet your requirements but we have previous commitments and therefore can only promise you our best try.

EU - ok have the contracts drawn up.

EU - signs contract.

AZ - we're having some trouble getting the plants upto speed you won't get as many vaccines as you would like but we're working really hard to rectify this.

EU - we want UK manufactured supplies instead then.

AZ - but they're for the UK.

EU - Completely loses their sanity and blames the UK.

Fuck all to do with us.

It's like people expected Brexit to happen an no retaliation from the EU to follow, ever.

So it is retaliation then?