AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 3

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

@Fastedbrownie

It's not the about wokeness or accommodating. If anything, the complete opposite is true. You all are looking at it from an ideological perspective. I'm looking at it from the lived reality of having had a child who at the end of the day still needs to pee, and as a parent, my own personal need for it not to be a traumatic drama that ends in tears every time they do. It's very easy to sit and scoff about how things should be done, it's very different to bare the weight of that reality several times a day.

I've scrolled back a few pages to see if I can piece together your story but have not been able to. From what I gather from the above, it's given a different angle and I do appreciate how difficult this is. I can't comment much further because I don't know the full story.

@Langrycleg

For example I am sure I have read threads on AIBU talking about a creepy driving instructor/ family member/ teacher/ neighbour that weren’t deleted. It must be the special ones only that we can’t talk about. What would be the reaction of those posters if they were deleted?

I completely agree with this. If you said creepy straight man or weird looking old dude it would be acceptable.

It's not the about wokeness or accommodating. If anything, the complete opposite is true. You all are looking at it from an ideological perspective. I'm looking at it from the lived reality of having had a child who at the end of the day still needs to pee, and as a parent, my own personal need for it not to be a traumatic drama that ends in tears every time they do. It's very easy to sit and scoff about how things should be done, it's very different to bare the weight of that reality several times a day.

I cannot imagine how difficult this must be for you but you must also realise that other children also have needs. The girls also just want to pee in the toilet area specially assigned to them.

Fastedbrownie of course mothers can imagine how hard this is, but on the other hand there are many girls in schools who won’t go in a newly mixed sexed toilet and getting urinary tract infections as a result, and being told they have no rights to single sex facilities...which is actually not true. Other mothers also care deeply about their children wh0 also need to pee( and change sanitary pads, deal with accidents etc.)why does the transgirls feelings trump others?

That cannot be an easy position to be in, Fastedbrownie, and you have my sympathies for what little they are worth from a stranger on the internet.
You are incorrect though, we are not looking at it from purely an ideological point of view, we too are looking at it from a parent`s perspective, and we too are living it.

Do you think we do not bare the weight of the reality too? If a transwoman were to join my team, what happens when my two strictly Muslim residents cannot use the bathrooms anymore as a person with a penis is using them? What then? What about them? They still have to pee, use sanitary provision, use the facilities.

What about my patients, the vast majority of whom have suffered horrific sexual attacks perpetrated by men and are recovering from traumatic surgeries. Should they have to share facilities with a person with a penis? What about their feelings?

It's very easy to sit and scoff about how things should be done, it's very different to bare the weight of that reality several times a day.

For what it is worth, we disagree on a few issues here but I can empathize with how very difficult your decision would have been. I also feel it is even more difficult that you had to make this decision with less support from research etc than a parent would wish to have access to.

I have no idea what decision I would make when faced with stark realities you have faced.

@334bu

*It's not the about wokeness or accommodating. If anything, the complete opposite is true. You all are looking at it from an ideological perspective. I'm looking at it from the lived reality of having had a child who at the end of the day still needs to pee, and as a parent, my own personal need for it not to be a traumatic drama that ends in tears every time they do. It's very easy to sit and scoff about how things should be done, it's very different to bare the weight of that reality several times a day.*

I cannot imagine how difficult this must be for you but you must also realise that other children also have needs. The girls also just want to pee in the toilet area specially assigned to them.

Sure, but as witches put it a few pages, it's not my responsibility to meet those needs. I'm not willing to sacrifice my own child's needs to meet the needs of a hypothetical child who might or might not exist in any given setting. And really at the heart of the problem, that's the point of stand still. Trans People and their families still need to get on with our lives - the groceries still need to be brought, etc. I can't just switch my kid's kidneys off because it's ideologically inconvenient.

There seems to be an enormous misunderstanding of what transitioning with the assistance of blockers looks like. All this talk about deep voices, beards, tennis ball sized testicals dangling in your daughters face.

The pp I responded to didn't say that I repeat. What was wrong with what she said?

Sure, but as witches put it a few pages, it's not my responsibility to meet those needs.

If males force themselves into female spaces without any care for the people they are intended for, even you must see that's not going to lead to greater acceptance for those males, is it? As I said it's extremely short sighted. If your stepchild passes completely, they're not going to be challenged. Most trans people don't pass.

I do sympathise. And a solution needs to be reached here. But on the other hand, can or even should women and girls be forced to give up what was fought so hard for? Should we move over and accept anyone who identifies as trans now into our spaces? This includes men, who look like men in every sense of the word, men with beards who claim to be lesbians, non binary men who by Stonewall's insidious definition falls under the trans umbrella?

Fastedbrownie as i said I understand it is hard but what would happen if you were to say to your child that you support them but the reality is that they need to use the according to their sex out of respect for girls feeling, and that perhaps their could be a little supportive of them to be in the toilet they have previously used. They would be all be showing a great example of solidarity. And yes teenagers very often have dramas and we all have to deal with them but not by pretending black is white. Perhaps in the longer term it is the best thing you could do for your child.

@PoleToPole

That cannot be an easy position to be in, Fastedbrownie, and you have my sympathies for what little they are worth from a stranger on the internet. You are incorrect though, we are not looking at it from purely an ideological point of view, we too are looking at it from a parent`s perspective, and we too are living it.

Do you think we do not bare the weight of the reality too? If a transwoman were to join my team, what happens when my two strictly Muslim residents cannot use the bathrooms anymore as a person with a penis is using them? What then? What about them? They still have to pee, use sanitary provision, use the facilities.

What about my patients, the vast majority of whom have suffered horrific sexual attacks perpetrated by men and are recovering from traumatic surgeries. Should they have to share facilities with a person with a penis? What about their feelings?

Okay, again, I'm talking about a tangible, unavoidable daily lived experience of which there is no viable alternative. You are talking in terms of hypotheticals. It's not even remotely the same thing.

Okay, again, I'm talking about a tangible, unavoidable daily lived experience of which there is no viable alternative. You are talking in terms of hypotheticals. It's not even remotely the same thing.

No she isn't talking about hypotheticals. Most women and girls don't want to share female spaces with males. Stop dismissing them as irrelevant just because it is hard for your relative.

I'm not willing to sacrifice my own child's needs to meet the needs of a hypothetical child who might or might not exist in any given setting

But that's just it they aren't hypothetical they are all the girls these toilets were designed to accommodate. They exist too and they have needs.

You are incorrect though, we are not looking at it from purely an ideological point of view, we too are looking at it from a parent`s perspective, and we too are living it.

YY. And as I said, if your child completely passes, no one will know. So either they don't, or you are in fact looking at it from an ideological perspective more than a practical one.

Oh sorry. ...please insert facility after use the , and friends after perhaps their. ( can anyone enlighten me why text just disappears?!)

Oh the whole bloody thing disappeared , apologies

I think it's kind to teach children that they are not the be all and end all of everything, and that they can't always have what they want, and that other people matter too.

Much less of a harsh comedown when they inevitably find out there are things they can't have.

No, Im not talking in hypotheticals, I have two Muslim surgical residents, I also have two daughters. None of them want to share womens spaces with biological males. I dont want to share womens spaces with biological males.

The vast majority of my patients come to me in a critical condition, but as soon as they are stable and able to do so, it is very rare to have a patient not request female HCPs. So again, why should they have to share facilities with people with male genitalia?

@Langrycleg

Fastedbrownie as i said I understand it is hard but what would happen if you were to say to your child that you support them but the reality is that they need to use the according to their sex out of respect for girls feeling, and that perhaps their could be a little supportive of them to be in the toilet they have previously used. They would be all be showing a great example of solidarity. And yes teenagers very often have dramas and we all have to deal with them but not by pretending black is white. Perhaps in the longer term it is the best thing you could do for your child.

Keeping in mind my sd is an adult now who would just tell me to mind my own business, but if we go back several years and say we're at a zoo - it would've just resulted in her proclaiming that she is a girl, lots of tears, accusations of not loving or caring, a long stand off which regardless of who won would've just resulted in us going home. And at the end of the day, again, she's going to need to pee anyway. It's a fundamental need, not a want, so it's going to come out eventually. So unless I want to be scrubing urine off my carseats constantly, she was always going to win that fight, so I've just ruined a day out for my family and upset my child for a fight I cannot win.

What I was trying to say was. We all can imagine how hard this is but what is the worst that could happen if you suggested to your child that they should consider the girls feelings and respect them by agreeing to use the facilities allocated to their sex?. What about seeing how far their friends would support them there... might there be the notion of solidarity perhaps? Perhaps in the long run it would be helpful if you were to say that while you will always love and care for them the reality is that they can never be a girl and that life will be very difficult if he doesn’t face up to the fact that very few people they meet will believe they are a girl or woman. All teenagers have dramas and it’s tough, but sometimes it is not helpful to say that black is white, which is actually not true.

It's a fundamental need, not a want,

It's a fundamental need for all the women and girls using the toilet too!

Didn’t realise they were now adult... I also realise that my original appeared above so apologies for duplication.

I think it's kind to teach children that they are not the be all and end all of everything, and that they can't always have what they want, and that other people matter too.

Yes, absolutely.

If women and girls are supposed to "be kind" where is the kindness to us? Where is the consideration for us? For all of the women and girls who have been raped, abused and mutilated by men? For the women whose religious beliefs do not allow them to share spaces with people with male genitalia? Where is the kindness for them? Why are their needs less important?