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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 3

988 replies

Thewithesarehere · 29/01/2021 21:26

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Thewithesarehere · 31/01/2021 20:20

So Muslim and Jewish Orthodox women, women traumatised by men and women that just wanted a bit of time with no men around now have precisely nowhere.
It will be quite interesting to see how this has been tackled in the London boroughs that have a significant Muslim or Jewish population (Redbridge or Barnet). Is there a way to find these data?

OP posts:
wordsinourmouths · 31/01/2021 20:23

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Thewithesarehere · 31/01/2021 20:24

So Muslim and Jewish Orthodox women, women traumatised by men and women that just wanted a bit of time with no men around now have precisely nowhere.
It will be quite interesting to see how this has been tackled in the London boroughs that have a significant Muslim or Jewish population (Redbridge or Barnet). Is there a way to find these data?

OP posts:
ListeningQuietly · 31/01/2021 20:34

Should Muslims be forced to allow Trans-women who have penis and testicles into the women only areas of a mosque?

Should orthodox Jews be forced to allow Trans-women who have penis and testicles into women only areas of a synagogue?

Should Catholics be forced to allow Trans-women who have penis and testicles into convents ?

Should Hindus be forced to allow Trans-women with penis and testicles into the women only parts of a wedding ?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/01/2021 20:36

Do you honestly think the law was intending to ensure that trans women don’t get thrown out of men’s toilets?

Why wouldn't it? It's a plausible scenario that male people with prejudices wouldn't want "different" males in male spaces, like MTF trans people or gay men. And that those people need their rights to be protected.

wordsinourmouths · 31/01/2021 20:58

Just posted a new thread trying to get away from toilets. I think some of us will find ourselves on a surprising side..

Third Facilities

Tyoesofcatalogue · 31/01/2021 21:03

There is no right to throw a transwoman out of a man's toilet though is there.

They share the same Sex. There is no objective justification to denying a person of the sex the facility was intended for out.

There’s often no objective reason to denying people lots of things, like employment, equal pay, access. But some people try. That’s why we have equality legislation.

gardenbird48 · 31/01/2021 21:54

@Tyoesofcatalogue

There is no right to throw a transwoman out of a man's toilet though is there.

They share the same Sex. There is no objective justification to denying a person of the sex the facility was intended for out.

There’s often no objective reason to denying people lots of things, like employment, equal pay, access. But some people try. That’s why we have equality legislation.

yes, so we have the Equality Act 2010 to give us a way of protecting against discrimination on the basis of a number of protected characteristics including Sex.

I really don't understand your comment about throwing a transwoman out of a men's toilet - has that happened? Men have said that they are quite used to some women using the men's toilets so there seems to be no reason why transwomen should have any issues using the correct facilities for their sex.

That stands for all other single sex facilities in the absence of any compelling evidence to the contrary. All that has been produced so far is a limited study based in America from 5 yrs ago. Surely something has happened in the UK since then - if not then....?

The nature of trans identifying people seems to have changed significantly in the past 5 or so years. When the GRA was brought in 2004, it was anticipated that there would be no more than 5000 transsexuals needing to use the legislation and the tendency would be to aim for full surgical transition and many of those understand their birth sex and do not attempt to use the female single sex facilities.

Now we have estimates of between 500,000 and 2million trans identifying people in the UK with approx. 85% of those with no intention of surgery or even hormone treatment. That is a very different type of person who is demanding full access to female single sex facilities.

Women and girls need single sex spaces for safeguarding and privacy. Some women are already self-excluding from services such as rape shelters because the presence of a male-bodied person triggers their trauma. Many rape shelters are now recruiting male-bodied people who answer the phones to traumatised rape victims. No data is captured as to how many women are not able to access support for this reason.

Winesalot · 31/01/2021 22:08

You might be interested to know that many of the 'facts' in that video are untrue or highly contested.

Just getting back to this.. so jj which other ‘facts’ in this video are untrue or highly contested please??

And links to the thorough debunking of Blanchard please so we can all read. I have actually read recent papers that back it up.

Thewithesarehere · 31/01/2021 22:15

As ever. Smile

AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 3
OP posts:
Winesalot · 31/01/2021 22:23

In reading something else, I came across this. Beard and all, declaring they are using women’s toilets all the time.

An active politician standing for election.

AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 3
Winesalot · 31/01/2021 22:33

Sorry, posted too soon.

Question is, was this tweet a joke (no one is laughing) or is this a transman?

gardenbird48 · 31/01/2021 22:34

it's just beyond my understanding why on earth that man would feel entitled to use any female single sex facility at all!

It just goes to show how some men are very happy to ride rough shod over women's boundaries and totally ignore our voices that are saying 'no'! People like him are the reason why we need to enforce our boundaries firmly.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/01/2021 22:37

Question is, was this tweet a joke (no one is laughing) or is this a transman?

I think neither. This is a man. I don't think he is joking.

Winesalot · 31/01/2021 22:53

From what I have read (since posting) they are male AND do it for a joke as you say.

jj1968 · 31/01/2021 22:58

@Winesalot

You might be interested to know that many of the 'facts' in that video are untrue or highly contested.

Just getting back to this.. so jj which other ‘facts’ in this video are untrue or highly contested please??

And links to the thorough debunking of Blanchard please so we can all read. I have actually read recent papers that back it up.

It reminded me of those 911 videos claiming it was all an inside job or some of the climate change denial stuff kicking about. Very slick, lots of emotive music and experts pontificating - except none of those experts are actually qualified in the relevent fields and there was no attempt whatsoever at providing any balance from those who are. Not one of the talking heads in that video has any credentials which would qualify them to talk as experts of transgender people or trans healthcare. Still they can be very persuasive, until you step back and think about what it's saying - trans women are both trying to force lesbians to sleep with them and trying to turn lesbians into men - err why? Some trans women are extreme homosexuals who are so gay they try to become women ... err .. okay, and others fancy themselves as women so much they get their have their genitals altered, sure, that explains it. Being trans is a bit like someone who wanted a nosejob but didn't need one, are you sure? There are mysterious internet forums transing young gays and lesbians - err where? How come more young people are identifying as lesbian or gay than at any point in history then.

None of it really makes any sense but taken in totality it sounds plausible - thats why people get into conspiracy theories, this join the dots approach is seductive - a report from Dentons here, a couple of misrepresented scientific papers, a whole load of straw men, a tweet you don't like there, a trans person who's a bit creepy, the opinions of a few fringe scientists, a sprinkling of wild speculation, some pictures of scary looking trans criminals, an unqualified sculpter talking about the threat to children, a lingering hint of a big pharma money making plot and lots of WHY IS NO-ONE TALKING ABOUT THIS THE TRANS ARE SO POWERFUL and suddenly omg you're peak transing hard and can never come down again.

And the other side of story, the tens of thousands of happily transitioned people compared to the handful of those who regretted it, the experts in trans healthcare who are researching and practicing this every day, the mountain of academic literature and the lived experience of millions of trans people themselves bar the couple you might find who've decided to adopt the gender critical line for cookies are completely absent from the picture. Deliberately of course because these types of videos are not interested in the truth or any kind of balanced or nuanced examination but are simply recruitment exercises.

I think Serano's paper is the most comprehensive debunking of Blanchard btw: www.juliaserano.com/av/Serano-CaseAgainstAutogynephilia.pdf

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/01/2021 23:09

I think Serano's paper is the most comprehensive debunking of Blanchard btw:

I don't find it very convincing or impressive. The main argument is that because women fantasise about themselves as women having sex, it's completely the same if males fantasise about themselves as women having sex. It clearly isn't the same. Gaslighting. The evidence of the existence of transvestic fetishism (a condition listed in DSM-5) is not lacking.

You should also read the Trans Widow threads.

jj1968 · 31/01/2021 23:12

The nature of trans identifying people seems to have changed significantly in the past 5 or so years. When the GRA was brought in 2004, it was anticipated that there would be no more than 5000 transsexuals needing to use the legislation and the tendency would be to aim for full surgical transition and many of those understand their birth sex and do not attempt to use the female single sex facilities.

This is complete nonsense. The GRA requires trans people to prove they live in the role of their aquired gender which includes using single sex spaces inline with that gender. Moreover when the 2004 act was introduced trans people who wanted medical treatment had to undergo the 'real life experience' test for two years in which they were expected to live in their aquired gender in every possible way and would be quizzed by clinicians to ensure they were using spaces inline with their gender identity.

The number of people who talk with great authority about trans issues without having even a clue about the basics because they got all their information from mumsnet and gender critical twitter is becoming astonishing. And depressing.

jj1968 · 31/01/2021 23:16

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think Serano's paper is the most comprehensive debunking of Blanchard btw:

I don't find it very convincing or impressive. The main argument is that because women fantasise about themselves as women having sex, it's completely the same if males fantasise about themselves as women having sex. It clearly isn't the same. Gaslighting. The evidence of the existence of transvestic fetishism (a condition listed in DSM-5) is not lacking.

You should also read the Trans Widow threads.

The main argument is actually the weak evidential basis of Blanchard's theory, that it is unfalsifiable and so illegitimate and that his conclusions have not been verified in later experimental work.
pumpkinbump · 31/01/2021 23:16

If you can't answer that question, there is something not right with you.

Thewithesarehere · 31/01/2021 23:27

None of the points listed in that paper (which is a review article by the way so hardly objective without us checking all the references) answer the question in the OP: why should women be made to accommodate trans women in their safe spaces? In their sports (despite huge physical disparity) and in their tents (without the knowledge if parents of course!).

OP posts:
Winesalot · 31/01/2021 23:34

trans women are both trying to force lesbians to sleep with them yes

and trying to turn lesbians into men - err why?

From listening to detransitioner stories, there is a similar theme. Maybe it is because those that are NOT gay want sex with a transman. I am sure you can work that one out jj.

Some trans women are extreme homosexuals who are so gay makes sense there is some gay men who transition doesn’t it. No one says all transwomen are transitioning for the same reasons and everyone has their own sexual orientation.

others fancy themselves as women so much they get their have their genitals altered, sure, that explains it. well, considering 90 % retain their penis I am not sure what you are saying.

There are mysterious internet forums transing young gays and lesbians - err where? This is rather disingenuous. I have seen some very young teens in my acquaintance who have discovered new ‘friends’ on social media platforms in the past six months. I have also seen the child sex abuse that they wrote ‘together’ in a chat session. This is happening now. And according to detransitioners it has been happening for a while. And it is happening across different platforms.

How come more young people are identifying as lesbian or gay than at any point in history then.

Do you actually know anything about teenage girls jj? Not saying there isn’t greater numbers, however there is also some significant trends that need in-depth research.

None of it really makes any sense but taken in totality it sounds plausible - thats why people get into conspiracy theories, this join the dots approach is seductive - a report from Dentons here, a couple of misrepresented scientific papers, a whole load of straw men, a tweet you don't like there, a trans person who's a bit creepy, the opinions of a few fringe scientists, a sprinkling of wild speculation, some pictures of scary looking trans criminals, an unqualified sculpter talking about the threat to children, a lingering hint of a big pharma money making plot and lots of WHY IS NO-ONE TALKING ABOUT THIS THE TRANS ARE SO POWERFUL and suddenly omg you're peak transing hard and can never come down again.

You are always telling us jj that women’s groups in the UK are funded by far right extremists and floating conspiracy theories on FWR threads all the time. Perhaps your credibility here is very low.

And the other side of story, the tens of thousands of happily transitioned people compared to the handful of those who regretted it

There are no numbers because no one has followed up. You are minimizing the numbers because it suits you, but we all know there is NO data and that the number seems to be growing.

the experts in trans healthcare who are researching and practicing this every day,

Strange though a) the Recent Bell court case has very little evidence at all. And b) there is also the experts who are stating the current approach is wrong and more balanced research is needed. I certainly agree that much more is needed but it needs to be far more rigorous than what has been previously produced and capable of being repeated and robustly reviewed.

the lived experience of millions of trans people themselves

Excellent. You have data. Please share this data about the size of this population and be specific about the countries they live in too. We have been asking for this for a long time. Or is this a hyperbolic number for effect?

bar the couple you might find who've decided to adopt the gender critical line

And yet jj, we even get many posters on these boards who tell us their trans friends respect females and their rights but want to just live their lives. So, which is it? Only a few who we see on twitter or is what other posters say true too and perhaps there are more than you want to acknowledge.

And I read Serrano and I also read experts debunking Serrano too.

I think people who are interested in debunking this video should mention specific points. We already know you discredit people like Buck Angel. Which is interesting in itself because Buck Angel has probably the most in-depth first hand knowledge on female to male transitioning that is available. But you continue to reject anything they say.

We also have seen you have tried to discredit books without reading them yourself.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/01/2021 23:38

The number of people who talk with great authority about trans issues without having even a clue about the basics because they got all their information from mumsnet and gender critical twitter is becoming astonishing. And depressing.

What exactly was wrong in what was said there?

Fastedbrownie · 31/01/2021 23:39

@Thewithesarehere

None of the points listed in that paper (which is a review article by the way so hardly objective without us checking all the references) answer the question in the OP: why should women be made to accommodate trans women in their safe spaces? In their sports (despite huge physical disparity) and in their tents (without the knowledge if parents of course!).
Because they are public spaces.

And I don't know why you feel parents of other children have the right to be informed about my child's personal/medical information. Trans people are entitled to that 'dignity' and 'privacy' concept you keep blabbing on about too, and if you wouldn't be behind schools sharing another child's HIV status/mh diagnosis, I don't know you feel entitled it's appropriate for them to share my child's personal data.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/01/2021 23:40

Because they are public spaces.

Yes, female public spaces.