AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 3

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

Let's move on @Ereshkigalangcleg?

It's OK, youl get peace at 6 as I'll be off to watch the Barrowman on Dancing on Ice

Ok

@AryaStarkWolf, I didn't say or mean that their acceptance is more important than rape or assault. That didn't come from me.

What I was responding to was a PP saying that trans people wanting space is more important than our privacy, And pointing out it works both ways.

I don't think that throwing rape in every time is fair or cricket, partly as many PP have said they wouldn't be happy even if somebody had transitioned. I understand sexual assaults in toilets do happen but this is not the only issue in play here for people.

God it's a multi faceted issue eh?

More than many people realise!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

same argument as with tw. Who decides who is a feminist and who isnt.

For me:

A woman is an adult human female, it's simply the word for it like "doe", "mare".

A feminist is someone who stands up for the rights of women and girls, and acknowledges the oppression they face based on their sex. It's not about either hating men or pandering to them, in and of itself. It's simply a rights movement that centres women and girls, as 51% of the population, and the issues affecting us. Some of these overlap with issues facing males, many do not.

Transgender ideology and politics is built on regressive ideas of both sexes and sex role stereotypes. It isn't remotely helpful to women and girls oppressed on the basis of their sexed bodies and the expectations flowing from them. Gender dysphoria is a medical condition which again, is not the responsibility of women to manage.

A feminist is someone who stands up for the rights of women and girls, and acknowledges the oppression they face based on their sex. It's not about either hating men or pandering to them, in and of itself. It's simply a rights movement that centres women and girls, as 51% of the population, and the issues affecting us. Some of these overlap with issues facing males, many do not.

We agree.

Bloody hell.

[quote RootyT00t]@AryaStarkWolf, I didn't say or mean that their acceptance is more important than rape or assault. That didn't come from me.

What I was responding to was a PP saying that trans people wanting space is more important than our privacy, And pointing out it works both ways.

I don't think that throwing rape in every time is fair or cricket, partly as many PP have said they wouldn't be happy even if somebody had transitioned. I understand sexual assaults in toilets do happen but this is not the only issue in play here for people.[/quote]
It is a massive part of the issue though considering most women will face some form of sexual assault or harassment in her life and changing rooms and bathrooms ate a place where women and girls will be in a state of undress and be vulnerable

@Impatiens

You don't believe a man (not talking about the Twitter brigade) but a man, can be a feminist?

rooty

Honestly I think we should stop trying to make it so complicated and go back to basics.

After all everyone seems to know what a woman or girl is when it comes to who to pay to have a baby, who to rape, who to jail fir miscarriages , who to dump on a trash heap at birth etc.

I sincerely wish we could abolish all the stupid stereotypes ajd appreciate peolw for who they are without chucking them out the man/woman box fir doing it "wrong"

When 3 year olds are asking when God will remove their boy parts I think it shows just how far we have let gender take over our lives and how harmful and restrictive it all is.

Toys are toys
Clothes are clothes

@jellyfrizz

Um, transpeople do not typically walk around in denial. It's very hard to do that when you're jabbing yourself with needles everyday and have a giant uncomfortable implant in your arm. My sd knows she's a biological male and has no issues owning up to her transness in appropriate circumstances. In fact, she currently only dates other transwomen. There is a whole group of them out there in the world, living their lives and being trans. It's VERY scary.

Do you think if society were more accepting of trans people that those appropriate circumstances could be all the time?

No, because unless you're engaging in a sexual relationship with a trans person or a medical professional, it's nobody else's business. Normally sd freely shares with friends, because it is and always will be an important part of hrr life, but everybody you pass on the street is entitled to intimidate details of your life and body.

We agree.

Bloody hell.

@AryaStarkWolf Yep get that. But and il Don my tin hat here, isn't it far more likely that someone will fear a man in a private space due to previous sexual assault as opposed to the likelihood og it happening in a public toilet? (Not that I'm minimising that issue).

@Ereshkigalangcleg

We agree.

Bloody hell.

No wine for me I've gone sober after too much gin in lockdow.

That's why I'm so sensitive

@Whatwouldscullydo

rooty

Honestly I think we should stop trying to make it so complicated and go back to basics.

After all everyone seems to know what a woman or girl is when it comes to who to pay to have a baby, who to rape, who to jail fir miscarriages , who to dump on a trash heap at birth etc.

I sincerely wish we could abolish all the stupid stereotypes ajd appreciate peolw for who they are without chucking them out the man/woman box fir doing it "wrong"

When 3 year olds are asking when God will remove their boy parts I think it shows just how far we have let gender take over our lives and how harmful and restrictive it all is.

Toys are toys
Clothes are clothes

I don't disagree.

And I teach gender stereotypes as part of my job role.

[quote RootyT00t]@AryaStarkWolf Yep get that. But and il Don my tin hat here, isn't it far more likely that someone will fear a man in a private space due to previous sexual assault as opposed to the likelihood og it happening in a public toilet? (Not that I'm minimising that issue).[/quote]
You have a choice who comes in to private spaces though

@AryaStarkWolf yeah I get that.

And I'm not, once again, saying a need to be accepted trumps that.

No wine for me
I've gone sober after too much gin in lockdow.

That's why I'm so sensitive

You have more willpower than me, was just contemplating a g&t

[quote RootyT00t]@Impatiens

You don't believe a man (not talking about the Twitter brigade) but a man, can be a feminist?[/quote]
No. Obviously I would hope for them to be an ally but it's a Women's movement.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No wine for me I've gone sober after too much gin in lockdow.

That's why I'm so sensitive

You have more willpower than me, was just contemplating a g&t

Do it.

I would but really, really need to give my liver a break

This thing about the equality of men's desire for validation and women's need for safety, is about the relative value of the lives of each of those groups.

In Maslow's hierarchy, safety comes first.

But in patriarchy, men's lives are valued more than those of women, so what they want, is equal to what women need (or even more important in some cultures and situations).

And that's also why so many men feel really angry, hurt and outraged when a woman doesn't do the kindess, caring, validating thing for men. It's why so many of them suddenly decide you're an ugly fat bitch after having come on to you when you say no - because they are so outraged by your failure to fulfil your function of meeting their needs.

And of course it's why so many transactivists are so abusive to women who say no to them - because they have been socialised as males, to believe women are there to meet their needs. Uppity women not doing so, is stunningly dreadful to them, they can't believe that we can be so neglectful of our duty to cater to their feelings.

Nothing shows their maleness more than that socialised assumption. Not even their dicks and beards.

Rooty this I think is what has been a source of discomfort to you throughout the threads - feminists used to this analysis mocking feelz, aren't mocking men's feelings as a whole, we are mocking that entitlement which assumes men's feelings are more important than those of women and even in some cases, more important than our needs.

@Impatiens

Again this is where I'm quite naive I think.

If a man can't be a feminist, doesn't that then alienate them?

I can't be gay because I'm not, but I sure am an ally. But there is no 'feminist' equation ther e, or I would consider myself that.

@ScreamingBeans

This thing about the equality of men's desire for validation and women's need for safety, is about the relative value of the lives of each of those groups.

In Maslow's hierarchy, safety comes first.

But in patriarchy, men's lives are valued more than those of women, so what they want, is equal to what women need (or even more important in some cultures and situations).

And that's also why so many men feel really angry, hurt and outraged when a woman doesn't do the kindess, caring, validating thing for men. It's why so many of them suddenly decide you're an ugly fat bitch after having come on to you when you say no - because they are so outraged by your failure to fulfil your function of meeting their needs.

And of course it's why so many transactivists are so abusive to women who say no to them - because they have been socialised as males, to believe women are there to meet their needs. Uppity women not doing so, is stunningly dreadful to them, they can't believe that we can be so neglectful of our duty to cater to their feelings.

Nothing shows their maleness more than that socialised assumption. Not even their dicks and beards.

Rooty this I think is what has been a source of discomfort to you throughout the threads - feminists used to this analysis mocking feelz, aren't mocking men's feelings as a whole, we are mocking that entitlement which assumes men's feelings are more important than those of women and even in some cases, more important than our needs.

Yep. You've nailed it.

But then as an island, I watched the video Wines posted yesterday where trans women did the whole f u bitch sit down bitch we will destroy you with my head in my hands having given it Welly yesterday about mens feelings.

@RootyT00t

I'm t noat all clued up about feminist history or consider myself a gatekeeper at all, I'm only stating my view that feminism is a Women's movement - centred on issues concerning Women/Girls. Once you include Men it inevitably becomes something else.

In the same way, I wouldn't seek to include myself in any group set up to focus on specific issues affecting Men.

@ScreamingBeans

This thing about the equality of men's desire for validation and women's need for safety, is about the relative value of the lives of each of those groups.

In Maslow's hierarchy, safety comes first.

But in patriarchy, men's lives are valued more than those of women, so what they want, is equal to what women need (or even more important in some cultures and situations).

And that's also why so many men feel really angry, hurt and outraged when a woman doesn't do the kindess, caring, validating thing for men. It's why so many of them suddenly decide you're an ugly fat bitch after having come on to you when you say no - because they are so outraged by your failure to fulfil your function of meeting their needs.

And of course it's why so many transactivists are so abusive to women who say no to them - because they have been socialised as males, to believe women are there to meet their needs. Uppity women not doing so, is stunningly dreadful to them, they can't believe that we can be so neglectful of our duty to cater to their feelings.

Nothing shows their maleness more than that socialised assumption. Not even their dicks and beards.

Rooty this I think is what has been a source of discomfort to you throughout the threads - feminists used to this analysis mocking feelz, aren't mocking men's feelings as a whole, we are mocking that entitlement which assumes men's feelings are more important than those of women and even in some cases, more important than our needs.

That is such a clear explanation, I hope I can remember the points in future RL conversations!

I don’t think anyone is minimising how traumatic it can be for young people, trans or other. It is terrifying to be young.

But it has to be a discussion about this. I agree that it must be very hard for the trans girl who has been discussed here. I have a lot of empathy for them. I also have empathy for girls who have been victims of abuse, sexual harassment, sexual assault or who just are very embarrassed about their growing bodies. I rarely hear a TRA express empathy for them.

And how can you (even if you want) allow a trans girl in and exclude a mature trans woman who is very happy with their male genitalia, trans women like Jessica Yaniv or men who just claim to be trans?

I understand that everyone wants acceptance, but I am not sure that toilets is the place to go for that. I do favour the safety aspect. Wouldn’t it be better if the acceptance could be in situations where everyone is dressed and not vulnerable?

In the same way that you (not you personally)) completely refuse to accept them as they are, continually accuse them of wanting to be better or more important than you and refuse to understand why they want in toilets other than to be a threat

@RootyT00t

I take offence at a suggestion i have sneered at anyone.

I'll ask again. Why do transwomen count more than muslim girls? They have the option to use the toilets based on their sex (the Mens). Muslim and girls do not have another option. My daughter who is autistic does have the option of using the disabled toilets but given that her needs are not physical and those facilities are limited why should she? Why should disabled people and muslim people and women who have faced assault or just simply have boundaries have to lose out to people who do most definitely have other options. Whether it be using the toilets based upon their SEX or entering into a discussion about third spaces which would meet everyone's needs to go to the toilet, which is actually what this should be about. Not the need to affirm someone's belief that a person can literally change sex , sometimes without making one single physical change.

It’s not just about being accepted though.

Many people with intense gender dysphoria will not be able to use the toilets of (what feels like) the wrong sex. For some it creates such a disgusting painful, self-hatred reaction, they just can’t do it.