AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 3

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

but there is no reason a transwoman can't use a female toilet, seek shelter in a refuge, or be put up for prizes. That is, unless youbelieve females to be of inferior intellect than males.
I'm not following your thinking. Of course transwomen have every right to toilets and refuges and to be nominated for prizes. The question is, are they entitled to toilets, refuges and prizes which, for all kinds of reasons, are reserved for women? Nothing to do with intellect and everything to do with their sex, which is male,

I don't qualify, because what somebody else does in a bathroom and what services they use are none of my business. I might roll my eyes at a bearded man in a dress, but I'm also not reaching for the bear spray

But you haven’t explained how transwomen are eligible for these things in the first place, regardless of what they’re doing there. And you haven’t explained why, if you think some people who say they’re trans actually aren’t, why they should be eligible.

It seems that because you’re not bothered by the presence of male in a female space, you can’t see how others might be. Which is a bit sad I think.

The original question was about changing rooms and whether teenage and other women should be censored for talking about our own needs and concerns. When 88% of users here think there’s a problem, there probably is

Fastedbrownie you wrote:

No, I don't. I think 'transwomen' with beards, etc, are really just men with fetishes

But these people are also trying to access women’s spaces. Should they be allowed to?

@NotBadConsidering

I don't qualify, because what somebody else does in a bathroom and what services they use are none of my business. I might roll my eyes at a bearded man in a dress, but I'm also not reaching for the bear spray

But you haven’t explained how transwomen are eligible for these things in the first place, regardless of what they’re doing there. And you haven’t explained why, if you think some people who say they’re trans actually aren’t, why they should be eligible.

It seems that because you’re not bothered by the presence of male in a female space, you can’t see how others might be. Which is a bit sad I think.

I can see how they might be bothered, I just don't think you get to micromanage your environment in a public setting. You don t get to dictate who pees where.

You don t get to dictate who pees where.

So why have we created single sex toilets in the first place?

Well if we can’t dictate who pees where why bother with segregated toilets at all? If it doesn’t matter, why can’t my DH come in to the loos with me?

I mean I know he’s lovely so other women should just be fine with it right?

Interesting choices of words ‘micromanage’ and ‘dictate’; and to apply the words to women and not to those seeking the change.

Some transwomen - and some men - and girls/women want toilets to be X way: these wants are incompatible. The status quo in the UK was, until recently, single sex. For several reasons: girls and women’s preference, and because some men / male bodied people are a threat.

The obvious compromise is to have 3 facilities: some transwomen/men don’t want that either.

Most girls and women want single sex health services and wards, social care services and facilities such as refuges, to have the option of a woman performing invasive or intimate medical procedures. Single sex sports. Prisons. Residential facilities for vulnerable adults and elderly. Factually accurate official statistics. And yes, single sex loos.

@Fastedbrownie
When you started puberty blockers for your child, which clinical data and adverse events records did you see before starting them?
Can you share those data with us? Especially the adverse events one.

You don t get to dictate who pees where.

The problem with this argument, is that the sort of men who want to get into women's toilets, are the sort of men who don't just want to pee there.

It's not even just a safeguarding question. Quite apart from the potential for assault, voyeurism and covert filming, the reason some men would love to have access to women's toilets is quite simply because it gives them a boner. The transgressive nature of their presence in the women's loo, is what excites them. That's why they want to be there.

Should we mind our own business about their boners? Is it none of our concern? Should we just get over it and accept that when we want to relieve ourselves when we're out and about in public, we just have to put up with the fact that a bloke might use our presence to bring himself off? Is that really something we should all accept as reasonable?

www.womenarehuman.com/male-transgender-trans-activist-called-out-for-years-of-sexual-predation-against-adolescent-girls-jonathan-jessica-yaniv/

@Fastedbrownie
If you write or say what you wrote here (“No, I don't. I think 'transwomen' with beards, etc, are really just men with fetishes”), you will get death and rape threats.
I am nearly 100% sure that this post of yours has been reported already.

Until v recently there were regularly stories in the press about crappy NHS progress on getting rid of mixed sex wards. We’re going backwards on that, and addressing that should be a far higher priority.

I’ve had several bad experiences with male health professionals during gynae procedures and topless heart tests: there was no option given to request a woman health professional or another person to be present. EPRCs (day procedure under general anaesthetic for miscarriage) on mixed sex day units with v little privacy; and been in active labour in mixed sex waiting areas open to the public (overwhelmed London hospital with no rooms / midwives available for women giving birth). In the 21st century!

Well if we can’t dictate who pees where why bother with segregated toilets at all? If it doesn’t matter, why can’t my DH come in to the loos with me?

I mean I know he’s lovely so other women should just be fine with it right?

Quite.

Absolutely I object to transwomen receiving awards that acknowledge women’s contribution and achievement. Because males still have the benefits from sexist discrimination from birth. Or don’t you think so? As a mother of a teenaged girl, I can assure you it is very much still happening. So, yes. The push against Transwomen receiving these awards is not because we think women and girls are intellectually inferior. But because sexist discrimination still exists.

And as for transwomen being placed in roles set aside for women, either due to the nature of the role or due to a balancing provision. The same applies. There are currently panels and boards that are meant to have equal representation of male and female. But are not equal at all. One is around 75% male. How is this representing female’s needs?

I am all for provisions being made for trans people’s needs. But not at the expense of women. Why is it ok that so many women’s officer roles have males incumbents? What shared experience do they have to represent females? And these positions influence policy. And are the beginning of political careers. So these males then move into more influential women’s officer roles and so on. This is happening now. Why is this ok???

How does this benefit females exactly?

@EvelynBeatrice

What is extraordinary is that U.K. law - the Equality Act as drafted - is clear on what sex (not gender) is and clearly permits a division of people on sex grounds in certain circumstances envisaging that this may be required and is reasonable. It is very odd indeed that people who wish to retain this distinction are not permitted to express that view. I understand that many wish the law to change and have the right to campaign accordingly; however the opposite - the retention of the status quo - appears to be prohibited on social media.

There is no point into getting into a discussion with TRAs about this. They deny the existence of sex based rights, even though Sex is a specific protected characteristic in the EqA.

Further more they deny the possibility that women could be discriminated on the basis of their sex rather than their gender identity and deny that discrimination against women may look different to discrimination against transwomen and that the reason for that difference is based on biological sex not gender.

A great opinion piece today about the SNP defining transphobic at their meeting today.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/17027a3c-633a-11eb-a89f-ac2e7b8b7ae3?shareToken=7f3f1c8765c6e1160b5cdcdd99bb97ff

I don't want to sit and pee while some guy's wanking in the next stall. Is that pearl clutching on my part? Should I just accept that it's my problem and get over it, because what happens in the next stall is none of my business? I used to believe that, but I don't anymore, I think this acceptance of unacceptable behaviour is not a healthy development for our society

The thing is, the logical endpoint of this is actually societal acceptance of trans people is coming to go down if this is allowed to continue. I might be able to shrug off the experience of a crossdresser masturbating like a monkey in the next cubicle, but if my hypothetical 10 yo daughter comes out and tells her White Van Man dad... he is going to take quite a dim view. Eg. kicking the door in and dragging them out in order to have a quiet chat about their behaviour (!)

Despite the woke lefty bias of Twitter, most of the UK is still quite conservative with a small c. The activists are going to find themselves on the end of a backlash that can’t be contained by bullying women on Twitter.

I say this as a gender non—conforming female who absolutely would have been duped into transitioning if I’d been 30 years younger. If I can forget for a minute about the the twatty activists, ive actually quite enjoyed the recent shift in attitudes and tolerance that has led to a massive reduction in people making derogatory comments about my appearance.

I desperately don’t want to go back to that. Or worse. And I think that’s where this will end up, if the grown ups don’t intervene.

Unfortunately fasted and everyone else in your situation, I don’t think you can afford to ignore this for much longer.

Dozer
Until v recently there were regularly stories in the press about crappy NHS progress on getting rid of mixed sex wards. We’re going backwards on that, and addressing that should be a far higher priority.

If we went backwards just a little further, we would be back where we were during my teens and twenties, when the long-stay wards in my local hospital most emphatically were not mixed-sex, and were called "Women's Surgical 1 & 2" and "Men's Surgical 1 & 2". They were not even on the same floor of the hospital.

I don't want to sit and pee while some guy's wanking in the next stall.

But of course, we are told that it never happens (despite videos of it happening). And if it does happen, we are not allowed to kink shame despite the fact someone has non-consensually used women using the toilet In their fantasy. This is the problem with, it is someone else’s issue if they are not comfortable.

Where does the line get drawn? How do we know that which is the nice only disphoric male vs the other type.

Coming back to the original OP, I find it terrifying that it not is allowed to even question this on social media.

Trans women want access to all female spaces. Trans women in 90% of cases keep their male genitalia (even the massing SD of one of the PPs).

And women are not allowed to even discuss this? If I go into a female changing room by a swimming pool with my underaged daughters, I am

a) Not allowed to question why someone with a beard and a dress are changing there and displaying male genitalia to my daughters?

b) I am not allowed to question this on social media?

c) Am I allowed to ask the establishment? I guess not!

@CoffeeTeaChocolate that is kind of the urgency to be honest. We need to ask the question together because individually we are too vulnerable. The Maya Forstater appeal is coming up, not sure when. Supporting her was one of the reasons for the pile on, on J K Rowling. Worthwhile googling it to find out about it.

CoffeTeaChocolate

I'm late to this thread, but it was precisely the guidance issued by Swim England as to what to do in that situation which turned me into a 'late onset feminist' as Datun put it.

As in 'centre users who object to a male bodied transwoman in their changing room should be educated as to how not all women's bodies are the same' (or words to that effect). In other words, be kind and shut up!!!

As in 'centre users who object to a male bodied transwoman in their changing room should be educated as to how not all women's bodies are the same' (or words to that effect).

Yes. I do find I have a problem with being told that women and girls who have very valid reasons for not wanting any male in their spaces should ‘deal with it’ because it is there problem. That a woman or girl’s distress is deprioritised because a male’s distress has the priority, regardless of how they pass. It is this ‘but my friend just wants to pee but can’t use the male space because ..’ so they come first. Also Forgetting all the other things that women and girls also do in the toilet that are not just peeing.