AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 3

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

[quote RootyT00t]@Thewithesarehere was it you who was saying about having a comment deleted?[/quote]
Yes. On the other threads in AIBU, someone was posting about prescribing puberty blockers in children and how they should be allowed in a certain set of children.
I asked for registrational clinical trial data that show these drugs are safe. And when they couldn’t, I said we should follow the money trail because it sounds like this prescription, and the assorted life-long/life-changing treatments that accompany or follow, is a huge money/making machine.

Yes gardenbird the level of capture at all levels especially the higher ones is quite extraordinary. There are many threads around showing where the funding comes from but I can’t lay eyes on them..too tired!

Deletions happen all the time in one forum particularly ...

I had one of mine from thread 2 deleted yesterday (fair enough to be fair) and was told it's now a 3 strikes within 6 weeks and you're out! Just a warning if you've posted the same comment on more than one thread!

@wordsinourmouths

Deletions happen all the time in one forum particularly ...

I lurk in the Feminism threads and that is where I first understood this discussion. From the look of it, Mumsnet’s Feminism board is under constant scrutiny by these TWAW-spouting militants. This is why this topic needs to come out in the boards that get far more traffic and have a voting functionality that is easy to use when or if people don’t have time to write a post.

It may have already been mentioned but posters on FWR are very used to an extremely high level of monitoring and reporting of posts by people who take a close interest in our discussions (but not in a positive way). There are often screenshots of threads posted on twitter for general comment and criticism.
I think mn regularly gets threatened with legal action for allowing us wims to get our witchy heads together and talk about forbidden subjects so be very careful in your posts lovely people.

We are standing at a very healthy %age.
Way to go Mumsnet!

But I remember sitting watching the threadsa thinking "but all lives matter" , and having to look into why people saying that was causing the chaos it was.

Similar with this.

And why do you think people have a problem with that statement?

@gardenbird48

It may have already been mentioned but posters on FWR are very used to an extremely high level of monitoring and reporting of posts by people who take a close interest in our discussions (but not in a positive way). There are often screenshots of threads posted on twitter for general comment and criticism. I think mn regularly gets threatened with legal action for allowing us wims to get our witchy heads together and talk about forbidden subjects so be very careful in your posts lovely people.

I think this is why it is important to start talking about libel from this side too. The most obvious example is JK Rowling: not one person has so far provided even one example of why she is supposedly a trans phobe. So if they use an extremely serious allegation against anyone, they should be ready to face the consequences. So far, Mumsnet has been able to control these threats because Feminism board has some really eloquent and resourceful members who know how to dig and present relevant data. This means there is a case in nearly all instances.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But I remember sitting watching the threadsa thinking "but all lives matter" , and having to look into why people saying that was causing the chaos it was.

Similar with this.

And why do you think people have a problem with that statement?

The original statement?

I understand it now, I did my research.

But at the time, it came from a relatively naive place of not getting it - a knee jerk to defend all.

Same with this.

@rootyt00t

So you think that the thousands of people who are trans and go through what I can only imagine is a very painful experience should "come to terms with reality" , because it doesn't suit us to have them in our changing rooms.

Actually yes, I think this exactly.

I am sure it's all very traumatic, as so many things in life are, and appropriate support should be given with this aim in mind.

[quote Marley20]@rootyt00t

So you think that the thousands of people who are trans and go through what I can only imagine is a very painful experience should "come to terms with reality" , because it doesn't suit us to have them in our changing rooms.

Actually yes, I think this exactly.

I am sure it's all very traumatic, as so many things in life are, and appropriate support should be given with this aim in mind.[/quote]
I did say this quite a while ago and the thread has moved significantly since this.

YADNBU op.

gardenbird48 - "Never has any tiny minority group had such extensive influence"

They have played a very long game.

"Let's go back to 2007"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

Or even further back - to 1994

Press for Change - Mission Statement

Extract

7.00 The Methods of the "Press For Change" Campaign

7.01 Any legal method of attaining our goals is acceptable, and no particular strategy is laid down centrally, in order to encourage as much individual and grass roots activity as possible.

7.02 The following initiatives are currently being co-ordinated by the committee:

• A Parliamentary Forum of M.P.s from all political parties, committed to supporting a change to the law through Parliament.

• The establishment of a group of legal professionals committed to challenging discriminatory legislation through the British and/or European Courts.

• The establishment of a group of medical professionals familiar with current best practice in the treatment of transsexualism, who are willing to endorse the view that transsexual people are neither insane nor perverted, but are people with an inherent intersex condition, who are generally able, if appropriately treated, of leading full and constructive lives within society.

• The establishment of a group of Bishops and other religious leaders willing to support the rights of transsexual people.

• The establishment of a group of supportive Members of the European Parliament.

• Affiliation to the National Council of Civil Liberties.

• Liaison with the Trade Unions, asking that they affiliate to Press for Change and include "gender identity" in their equal opportunities policies.

• Liaison with the committee of Pride (in 1996 "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgendered Pride" to ensure transgender people are properly represented and included in this important event.

• A petition to be signed by the public and presented to the government.

• Regular articles and television appearances attempting to put forward a positive image of transsexual people and highlight the injustices we suffer.

• The co-ordination and dissemination of up-to-date information about transsexualism and about related civil rights and legal issues, to transgender people themselves, to the public and to relevant professionals, including the publication of books and training materials as appropriate.

• The provision of leaflets, posters and a campaigning pack, free of charge to any person or organization prepared to campaign in any way on behalf of transsexual people.

• The publication of regular updates on the campaign, distributed to all transsexual organizations, and to any individual or group who is actively involved, on request.

• Fund-raising as necessary. Please note that all money donated goes directly to the campaign - there are no paid staff. See separate Financial Policy and Procedure.

AKW/PFC 10/06/94

Continued at:

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/en/archive/20061214120000/www.pfc.org.uk/node/52.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/en/archive/20061214120000/www.pfc.org.uk/node/52.html

Oops! Missed this one 1973

BBC, Open Door - Transex Liberation Group

(The link should start at the second part of the programme, where Leo Abse, Member of Parliament for Pontypool, and Dr Schlicht, Psychiatrist, join the discussion and agree strategy)

Transex Liberation Group: Della Aleksander, Rachel Bowen, Jan Ford and Laura Pralet. Della was also the founder of GRAIL (Gender Research Association International Liaison), and co-produced the program.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06c83f4/player#t=32m46s

The thing that gets me about Thorn's statement is not so much the misogyny as the casual dishonesty. It's just sprinkled with counterfactual statements.

@InspiralCoalescenceRingdown

The thing that gets me about Thorn's statement is not so much the misogyny as the casual dishonesty. It's just sprinkled with counterfactual statements.

I agree - but . . . wrong thread?

As somebody with a trans sd, I'm in favour of nobody being banned from social media for anything that is not illegal. People can believe whatever they want to believe, it's not our business, and until they start doing genital checks at the bathroom door, it's not our problem if somebody else has a problem with it. Granted, sd passes exceedingly well (blockers from 14, now 21) but the way I explain it to my kids is that just because somebody has an issue with us doesn't make it our issue, that's something they need to sort through and come to terms with on their own, but the opposite is also true. We don't have to like what people say, but we do have to accept their right to say it.

but the way I explain it to my kids is that just because somebody has an issue with us doesn't make it our issue

No one has an issue with you. People have an issue with children being given puberty blockers under the pretence they’re reversible when the reality is all progress to cross sex hormones. People have an issue with this happening when there is no evidence it helps, with significant long term health consequences that are known and unknown, and the inability of children to consent to this given the consequences.

It’s really not fair to tell your kids that people have issues with collective you, when it’s nothing personal at all. Wanting appropriate healthcare that is based on evidence rather than ideology is not a personal attack on your family. It’s something everyone should want, but for some reason, we are bad guys for wanting it and should let children be medicalised for life on the basis of anecdotes.

@NotBadConsidering

but the way I explain it to my kids is that just because somebody has an issue with us doesn't make it our issue

No one has an issue with you. People have an issue with children being given puberty blockers under the pretence they’re reversible when the reality is all progress to cross sex hormones. People have an issue with this happening when there is no evidence it helps, with significant long term health consequences that are known and unknown, and the inability of children to consent to this given the consequences.

It’s really not fair to tell your kids that people have issues with collective you, when it’s nothing personal at all. Wanting appropriate healthcare that is based on evidence rather than ideology is not a personal attack on your family. It’s something everyone should want, but for some reason, we are bad guys for wanting it and should let children be medicalised for life on the basis of anecdotes.

And I agreed, still don't necessarily disagree, but when you have a child who is in and out of psych units with multiple suicide attempts before the age of 13, you do what you need to do to keep them alive. Much of the psychological distress was elevated by blockers, and we haven't had a single mental health crisis since. Thus far we haven't had any significant side effects that I know of. Bone density is good, height is average for a biological male, intellect and emotional intelligence is normal. As a family, it was the right choice for us, but I do not fight against the tavistock decision because I can acknowledge that there hadn't been enough research conducted on the long term effects, but I'm also confident that if we had (and we would've) taken it to court, we would've won because it was the right decision for our child at the time. Keeping in mind this was in the early 2010's before the trans trend really became mainstream.

And I take no issue with any of that, although I’m sure you’re aware that the inevitable health problems are on their way.

I took issue with your statement that you tell your kids people have an issue with you. People have issues with the ideology, the violent threats, the people telling JK Rowling to “die, bitch!”, the people carrying swords into toilets, walking around with erections in women’s spaces, women being raped in prison by males, women losing out in sport, and the fact that girls - biological females - presenting to clinics has sky rocketed and are put on the same pathway as your child with no questions why.

No one has an issue with you, unless you’re publicly championing any of the above. If your kids ask why are people angry, maybe explain some of the balance, rather than telling them it’s all out problem and not for them to worry about.

@NotBadConsidering

And I take no issue with any of that, although I’m sure you’re aware that the inevitable health problems are on their way.

I took issue with your statement that you tell your kids people have an issue with you. People have issues with the ideology, the violent threats, the people telling JK Rowling to “die, bitch!”, the people carrying swords into toilets, walking around with erections in women’s spaces, women being raped in prison by males, women losing out in sport, and the fact that girls - biological females - presenting to clinics has sky rocketed and are put on the same pathway as your child with no questions why.

No one has an issue with you, unless you’re publicly championing any of the above. If your kids ask why are people angry, maybe explain some of the balance, rather than telling them it’s all out problem and not for them to worry about.

I said IF people have an issue.

You will find that the real trans people out there -of course with some noticeable exceptions- really don't give a fuck about the twitter nonsense. They're just trying to live their lives. We're certainly not biology deniers, we know full well that sd was born a biological male and will die a male. We quite like JK Rowling in this house and found no issue with her letter. I have a son competing in a sport at an elite level and fully understand how physiology effects performance. For example, we're a figure skating family (not sons sport, just in general), and as a physics based sport that is heavily reliant on the shape of the pelvis, it's not appropriate for biological males and females to compete against one another because all the hormones in the world can't change a male pelvis into a female pelvis and raise the center of gravity. We accept that. Sd is very good, but skates only for fun because of this. I do not believe rapists belong in female prisons.

But what I do not entertain is the bathroom argument, because what occurs in the next toilet stall is nobody else's business. Sd went to boarding school for the last two years of school and was in the girl's hall, but had a single bedroom with ensuite. Worked fine. But in general, I draw the line at public toilets and changing rooms with stalls. Open changing rooms are a different ballgame and I would hope (and know) sd wouldn't get her penis out in a room full of strange women (though I think it's equally weird to get your fanny out in public too), but if somebody has a problem with what's going on behind the walls of a private stall, it's just that. Their problem. It has nothing to do with us.

Their problem. It has nothing to do with us.

By the sounds of this, they must pass.

Do you apply the same attitude to those mtf transitioners who keep their beards? If you look at the dating apps, and on social media there is a growing number of them? And the mtf who don’t pass at all. Does the same apply then?

And again, no one has any issue with you or your attitude to various political points.

But when it comes changing rooms and toilets, the issue people have is there aren’t single cubicles, they aren’t floor to ceiling, and there is no way of knowing if the male in there is lovely and kind like your child, or if they’re someone like Katie Dolatowski.

No one has an issue with what trans women do in toilets in the cubicles. People have an issue an issue with male presence in female spaces.

People also have an issue with language being altered so things like “her penis” become common, to suggest the penis is a female sex organ and hence belongs in female spaces. They don’t.

It sounds like you and your child are just trying to get on with your lives, but unfortunately you are being represented by people who are determined to erode women’s boundaries. This is also your problem. As Gina Carano said, you need better representation.

until they start doing genital checks at the bathroom door, it's not our problem

See this always makes me feel a bit incredulous. Surely you don't really think that only by checking genitals can people cop on that someone's male or female?

I go walking regularly during lockdown to try and have a modicum of activity in between working and Netflix binging. When I see someone who is far away in the distance, I can tell whether they are male or female long before I can see what they're wearing, what they look like etc., just by the way they carry themselves. From quite a long way. I don't need to check their genitals.

I understand that doesn't work with people who "pass" really well and who are consciously making an effort to alter their gait, but if they pass really well no one's going to know and while I know many women disagree with me, I'm pretty much of the view that what the eye don't see the heart don't grieve after, so it's not going to upset anyone.