AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 2

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

@LolaButt

I recently read a new policy at work in relation to trans employees. It said that at whatever stage of transition people are at, they can use whichever bathroom they choose.

That was it. No consultation with all employees. Just a sweeping, here you go this is how it is. No regard for how a woman who may have experienced sexual violence may feel about a man in the toilet with her, as an example.

My reaction startled myself actually. Because I so strongly felt that it was wrong that female employees were not given a voice on the issue.

I can’t speak up on this issue at work, because my employers are holding the image of the only visible trans person in the company up on the internal intranet, LinkedIn, media etc as a sort of token placard to show that they’re inclusive.

The image is like a shield against the views of women. Because you can’t argue against the guy in heels and a skirt, paired with a suit jacket and tie can you?! Because then you’re transphobic rather than pissed off that as a woman your voice wasn’t regarded highly enough to be invited to the conversation. But the guy in the skirt gets to control the narrative.

@LolaButt similar at my work. When I spoke with HR they were surprisingly supportive - I approached in a polite, evidenced, compassionate way. Which was true to how I felt. I have no issue with transpeople after all. If employees don't give their views employers can't register them. I know it is not always easy, and people are frightened of losing their jobs. But it is a catch 22. So my view is now to raise an issue where you can in a way that is supported and clear. I actually slept much better the night I did this because I felt less helpless and conflicted.

I do wonder if it's the young women who are the 'wokest' because so many of them haven't lived though the times when women had far fewer rights than they do now. My dd is still of the opinion that transwomen suffer more violence than women, and that twaw. We have had many discussions but have had to agree to disagree for now.
For me, sometimes I'm glad I'm old and will be stepping off this planet in the not too distant future. I feel for the ones coming on though, because it's crazy.
With all the suicide risk talk (for trans people) I wonder if there's been any work done around the risk for women who are terrified of losing their safe spaces.
I'm a survivor of csa, and I've certainly had my moments.

@JustAnotherPoster00

By framing the thread as a debate about 'hate speech'. The question is in the OP and is clearly not IN ANY WAY 'hate speech'.

Isnt that subjective?

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question

What do you think a private company should do if someone breaks the TOS? Should it be ignored just because you agree with the sentiments? Plenty of people agreed with Trump do you think it was right to ban him?

1. How is it subjective? Bumper is examples given here and on previous thread of the tweets actually inciting violence. Funnily, they aren’t banned but this one is. Why?

1. Which Twitter laws does this question break? Can you explain this a little?

When I first joined mumsnet, I didn't know anything about this. I quickly acquired late onset feminism. As anyone will tell you, it's highly contagious.

This describes me perfectly!

It was the Swim England guidelines that got me onto the FWR pages a few years back and I've never left.

@NancyDrawed

When I first joined mumsnet, I didn't know anything about this. I quickly acquired late onset feminism. As anyone will tell you, it's highly contagious.

This describes me perfectly!

It was the Swim England guidelines that got me onto the FWR pages a few years back and I've never left.

What was in the guidelines? A quick one-line summary for this thread please?

@Thewithesarehere the young women are the wokest because there has been a concerted and deliberate drive in higher and secondary education in the last 5 years to influence their understanding of gender. Walk around any uni campus or school and you will see what I mean. It was the deliberate piggybacking of the T onto the LGB by Stonewall. No-one has an issue with gay rights. No-one reasonable. Gay rights are entirely different from the issues around trans rights. Of course there is also all the Q, I, Enby, + categories as well to consider. Older women don't know what they are because we weren't taught. This is new stuff, on the curriculum until very recently, a curriculum written by Stonewall for schools.

I still don't get how this has become so mainstream though? Transgender people are relatively rare as I understand it, so how have the rights of a minority led to a situation whereby the meaning of the word 'women' has changed, and thus to the removal of women's rights?

I don't think JKR has said a single word that is transphobic, I don't understand how anyone can think she is.

I saw the Nicola Sturgeon twitter thing. Why is she giving a speech on protecting trans rights yet ignoring the abuse that Joanna Cherry has been subject to for raising concerns about women's rights in Scotland?

How has it got to that level?

A body called ‘The Feminist Library’ who are archivists have just posted this on Twitter.
I want to throw up or throw things- not sure which. Note they are not talking about abuse or violence. Questioning gets you banned.

“We wish to make clear that feminists who seek to present trans people as a complication or threat to feminist futures/political struggles are not welcome at the library nor is any person who does not abide by our community policy.”

lifeturns

Because dicks rule the world.

@lifeturnsonadime - it is frightening isn't it? As I say, in the last 5 years when if I had a young kid I would not have been paying attention. It has happened through: 1. targeting kids and young people 2. journalists and main stream media being frightened to report it 3. threatening and shutting down of women on social media 4. massive campaigns by corporates to bring trans into mainstream (Starbucks and others) 5. bbc programming (radio and tv). Look at this now with a critical eye and you will see it everywhere. The word woman is not used to reference women or women's products or services anymore.

Anyone is transgender if they say so. This is the nub of the problem for women. Any man can say he is a woman, regardless of whether he has had, or intends to have, any kind of medical intervention. Women are not allowed to challenge any of this. I think a lot of people don't realise this.

So a library called the feminist library is now banning women from speaking.

Are they burning books now as well ?

“We wish to make clear that feminists who seek to present trans people as a complication or threat to feminist futures/political struggles are not welcome at the library nor is any person who does not abide by our community policy.”

Might be a very good time to point out that many people posting here about these issues on MN actually consider transmen as well. Any person who is female and we also fight for our children too.

@JoyousAsOtters

unherd.com/2021/01/for-clinton-feminists-not-all-women-are-equal/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups%5B0%5D=18743&tl_period_type=3

This new essay on The Unherd might interest some of you - it talks about the intersection of liberal US feminism, class and gender.

Some insight into ‘how we got here’ I think.

I've just read this, and I'm not sure it does explain it.

It seems to be blaming women for it.

@littlbrowndog

So a library called the feminist library is now banning women from speaking.

Are they burning books now as well ?

Yes, they are.

Well to nit pick

Trans people are not a threat to feminist futures. There isn't a fundamental reason why coexistence isn't possible

It's a particular type of ideology that some people push that is the problem

Like .. a trans person's existence isn't the issue. The issue is when people want to force out discussions on sex , compelling people to replace sex with gender , that is the issue

Who or what are behind this

Is there money, power ?

And how have governments politicians , councils, sports bodies.

Not just said no

[quote JoodyBlue]@lifeturnsonadime - it is frightening isn't it? As I say, in the last 5 years when if I had a young kid I would not have been paying attention. It has happened through: 1. targeting kids and young people 2. journalists and main stream media being frightened to report it 3. threatening and shutting down of women on social media 4. massive campaigns by corporates to bring trans into mainstream (Starbucks and others) 5. bbc programming (radio and tv). Look at this now with a critical eye and you will see it everywhere. The word woman is not used to reference women or women's products or services anymore.[/quote]
Yes but those things don't just happen organically.

Something has to happen to drive those changes.

I'm wondering who or what the 'driver' is?

Yes midgedude

But why are so many people not seeing it ?

And how are they so powerful

My wake up call was Lily Madigan going for the Jo Cox Women in Leadership programme and election as the Women's Office for Labour students supported by Jeremy Corbin. I thought "eh?" No issue with LM at all, but the opportunities were supposed to be women's opportunities. Now for every women's accolade or prize there are also transwomen competing.

@lifeturnsonadime unfortunately I think it might not be a particularly savoury answer and not one that I am even prepared to look in the eye. When I had a conversation about this online with males of my acquaintance they pointed to feminism as a start point, critical of suffragettes as violent, pointed to organisations that support men against women's violence against partners. It feels like a backlash that has been orchestrated quite deliberately, and carefully, and lots of threads have come together. Have a look on the feminist archive for the Denton's document.

Just looked at the feminist library policy.
They have specifically said any group that supports ‘sex based rights’ is banned.

Joodyblue

Absolutely I have no issue whatsoever with a transowoman holding office, being an MP etc but in a role which was allocated to improve equality with women.

Anne Nandy stating that convicted rapists were entitled to be locked up with vulnerable women in prison was pretty shocking IMO. The misogyny in the labour party is very depressing.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists

@Smileyaxolotl1 - same. Thanks for making that clear. I agree :)