AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

[Angryresister]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

@Jetatyeovilaerodrome

Why would we not just have a member of staff in the room? What’s to stop a male from going in and assaulting a woman in a normal toilet when it’s quiet?

Honestly, you’re making a mountain out of a molehill here, it’s a perfectly viable solution that respects everyone’s right to privacy. There are solutions that work if you’re actually willing to look for them and not just panic over the smallest details.

If lockable cubicles are so safe, then why can't transwomen just use the mens?

There are no cubicals in men’s changing rooms? I’m talking about changing rooms not bathrooms.

@HebeMumsnet

Women's rights are not a niche concern to be moved out of general view.

I see the poll has been removed now that this thread has been hidden in FWR.
Ridiculous.

I know a lot of straight men who have no intention of abusing women but, they shouldn’t have access to female facilities either. Just because the intent isn’t there,doesn’t mean that we have to share our spaces.

On the subject of intentions (because it's been brought up a lot in this thread) I don't think we can ever state with 100% confidence the intentions of another. That's pretty much why safeguarding exists, why we require anyone working with the vulnerable to have a DBS check.

Look how many people (again mostly men) commit horrific crimes and when the media interviews the neighbours you hear over and over some variation of "he was a lovely man, coached kids football and volunteered at the food bank, I can't imagine he'd ever do anything like this".

YANBU. I have known and worked with a few mtf and also transvestites (remember them?) and I have shared toilets and changing rooms with mtf but I don't really want to in general because yes, I see them as men, and I have no need to look in their pants to know that.
I don't want to be vulnerable or naked around strange men, not because I am afraid, but because I don't want to. That should be good enough. We say no and no means no doesn't it?

I've hardly seen it mentioned outside of MN. It's not the be all and end all of everyone's life except on here. It's getting a little bit ridiculous.

All those court cases are not real eh?

Hmmm hmmm

@Viviennemary

I've hardly seen it mentioned outside of MN. It's not the be all and end all of everyone's life except on here. It's getting a little bit ridiculous.

Are people aware that it is happening though?

@Whatsnewpussyhat
Gender reassignment actually is a protected characteristic. For the very reason of all the intolerange and close-mindedness we are seeing on this thread.

@Viviennemary - do you have school age kids? It is worth taking a look at the messaging that they are getting. It is more serious than ridiculous

Look how many people (again mostly men) commit horrific crimes and when the media interviews the neighbours you hear over and over some variation of "he was a lovely man, coached kids football and volunteered at the food bank, I can't imagine he'd ever do anything like this".

I've known 2 men personally (one a family member) who fall under this bracket. Genuinely, you'd not have believed for a single second they were capable of the things they did. It made me physically sick, and proved without a doubt you simple cannot know what male intentions are. Even when using the label 'woman', it doesn't remove some male patterns of abuse, control and violence. A belief system doesn't inherently change a person's programming.

I think there's a fixation with penises in changing rooms that's a bit unhealthy, tbh. I have an Austrian friend; it's pretty common there to have saunas etc where everyone goes nude throughout, including in changing rooms.

Sexual assault is illegal. Men who want to assault women could just enter the changing rooms if they wanted. Lesbian women could assault women in the changing rooms if they wanted (and it wasn't so long ago that there was a moral panic about it)

I'd be a bit unnerved if there was someone swinging their cock around in a changing room but I suspect the reality would be someone quietly slipping on a swimming costume in the corner.

All the outrage on here is about sex offenders, not transwomen.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

It is a valid question. But What if the male sexed person has undergone various hormonal treatments and surgery to make them as physically close to a female sexed person as possible? Someone who genuinely lives their life as female. Where should they go? What facilities should they use?

The elephant in this particular room is that the problem here is men. It's that transgender people feel too threatened with male violence to use male facilities. Ergo the problem is men.

This is not women's issue to fix. We are not support humans. We are not here to sacrifice our own dignity, privacy and safety to affirm the identities of those who are not female (and they're not). They are trans women; and yes, it is usually trans women, not trans men, who are making this particular noise. They have a different biology, therefore a different set of physical and safeguarding needs.

I would advocate for a third space. That's a space I'd also use in circumstances of needing to use facilities alongside my young son. I'd not use it if I were alone. And if I use the reasoning that I've been the victim of both male abuse and rape, I am 'weaponising my trauma' (which ranks amongst the most offensive phrases I've ever heard uttered).

'Third space' isn't good enough for the vociferous activists, however, and in this regard you have to ask yourself why not. If simply ensuring the privacy, safety and security of trans people isn't sufficient, exactly what is it the activists do want?

The answers are not necessarily comfortable.

This sums up how I feel perfectly, its men who are generally violent with each other and women. If its late and I'm on the train or tube I wouldn't choose to sit in a carriage alone with a man i'd choose one with a woman.

Can I pose another question here? What about a trans man, does he go into the men’s or the women’s? Let’s say he’s been taking testosterone, he’s had the surgery to get rid of his breast tissue and he’s been going to the gym. He still has no penis as he hasn’t had these operations. He has a beard and fully presents as male.

I wouldn’t feel comfortable with him in the women’s, more so than a trans woman. So I’m just wondering, what do you all think about him going into the men’s changing room? Or, basing off a belief that you can’t change sex, they should be in the women’s?

[quote wildraisins]@Whatsnewpussyhat
Gender reassignment actually is a protected characteristic. For the very reason of all the intolerange and close-mindedness we are seeing on this thread.[/quote]
As are sex based rights. Which you don't seem to know or acknowledge the difference between @wildraisins, therefore undermining any point you're making.

I would still like to know what it means to live as a woman, and what gender identity is and why it should trump sex, given that according to the very helpful guidance from Stonewall that we were encouraged to read I do not have a gender identity.

If the word woman is now based on gender identity rather than sex, I am not a woman. Even Stonewall say I'm trans.

The ony definition I've ever received on here WRT gender identity is that it is some indescribable, undefinable, internal feeling of which gender (not sex but 'largely culturally defined' gender) you most identify as.

And I read that and can't help but think of gender roles and stereotypes. But it's not about gender roles and stereotypes. And then the answers stop coming and I'm just transphobic for not blindly accepting that some men know more about being a woman than I am.

@crowsaregreat penises in changing rooms is the tip of the iceberg.

It is the removal of the definition of woman as 'adult human female' that petrifies me and the subsequent removal of women's rights to appease the wants of a few men.

We are being told to shut up and know our place by men. I find it astonishing that people can't see this.

Lesbian women could assault women in the changing rooms if they wanted

They could, yes. And the fact that incidences of female-on-female sexual assault in single sex spaces are vanishingly rare rather suggests lesbian women don't want to.

Whereas the stats for male-on-female assaults in unisex spaces tell a rather different story.

I think the thing that gets lost (often purposely by those with an agenda) in these debates is that NO ONE IS SAYING TRANSWOMEN ARE MORE OF A THREAT TO WOMEN. What we ARE saying is

A) women are entitled to certain protections based on their biological sex
B) Self ID allows predatory males to abuse laws in order to attack women/children. It’s all well and good saying “no Transwomen wants to attack anyone.” but how are we supposed to tell the difference. They don’t wear badges proclaiming “Fake Trans” in the same way rapists don’t wear badges saying “Rapists”.

Add to this that the current mantra is “acceptance without exception” and we are not allowed to say that there’s a chance that a man might abuse the law or loopholes in order to access vulnerable people. Just like no abusive men ever became priests, or scout leaders or teachers, etc.

@SchadenfreudePersonified Absolutely agree. Ok, so TW are concerned about attacks by men so here's a neutral space. No, can't go in there, men can go in there.

Yes, but thanks to self ID, men can go ANYWHERE. They don't have to change a thing, can just walk in as they are and if they're challenged just say "I'm a woman too" and off they go.

Then you get the argument of men who attack won't be stopped by a door they'll just go in

Following on from this poster above. These mens crimes will also be reported as female crimes if they ID as women (not unfeasible as per MOJ statistics , over half of trans prisoners are sex offenders) Thus there wont be an increase of male sexual violence , and therefore nobody will do anything about it. A sex offenders free pass, especially if he gets sent to a female prison. Who is going to gatekeep self ID and how to you determine who is genuine or not, after all everybody who is trans has always been trans, they have just been to afraid to come out!

Watching two sides screaming at each other over who is most pitiful, weak and vulnerable and should deserve the most hallowed label of 'victim' is almost Kafkian in its surrealist delight.

Is there any evidence that a trans man or woman is any more likely to be a predator on the vulnerable than anybody else. It's like a witch hunt.

To those asking for examples of trans males assaulting females in single sex spaces- there have been multiple sexual assaults by trans males in women's prisons (see Karen White). There is currently a high court case being brought by a woman who was locked in cell with Karen White (who is a trans male) & repeatedly raped. Look at the trans crimes webpage for more statistics - warning some of descriptions are very upsetting. All the serious violent crimes in recent years have been committed by trans males, including murder, sexual assault, torture and kidnap. I would be very interested in a proper analysis of offending patterns by trans males- impossible to do right now as the police & prison service allow self-id - I suspect trans males may actually have worse offending rates than other males.

Muppet.

[quote wildraisins]@Whatsnewpussyhat
Gender reassignment actually is a protected characteristic. For the very reason of all the intolerange and close-mindedness we are seeing on this thread.[/quote]
It is a protected characteristic but that doesn’t mean trans women have the unfettered right to be treated identically to women. That’s not what the Equality Act says (this is my day job).

Still waiting for your view on rape survivors being triggered by penises in intimate environments. Do I just have to get over it?