Help. I really think I might be a terrible aunt

[keepittogethernowlisa]

Will try to keep this short(ish).
I live alone and I’m in a support bubble with my older sister’s family. My niece is 10, nephew 8, they come and stay with me all the time. Over the last two months I’ve seen them at least 3 times a week, 2 of those days will be in the week for homeschooling so full days.

I know homeschooling is tough on everyone but I find it especially tough. I don’t know if it’s just me.

My niece and nephew always seem to be badly behaved. Not really badly behaved as such but constant low-level naughtiness and disruption. They can’t sit for more than 15mins with throwing something or running around the room or going in my bedroom to open the wardrobe. They pull faces, say nonsense words, ask silly questions. Anything to provoke and get a reaction. I try and ask them questions and relate to them but it doesn’t work. At dinner they bicker with each other, refuse to eat things, put their food back into the serving plate. It feels like there is never a quiet moment to actually connect with the kids.

My sister doesn’t see it or pretends not to. She says this is just what having children is like. She will tell me stories of how the kids talk to her “for hours” . “Oh they are the sweetest kids”. They are not around me! I’ve never heard her have a conversation with them for longer than a few minutes, and it always ends with one of them saying something silly or being disruptive and her shouting. She says that’s how all children are. What, all the time?

I want to have kids some day but I wonder is this how it is? I’m struggling to see the positive side of it.

I have a few friends with young children and only see them on Zoom these days or in the park over the summer. They seem much calmer, able to hold conversations with the children. I went for a walk with a friend and her dd and the dd ran off to pick a flower, brought it back to show my friend and they had a ten minute conversation about it. We then kept walking. I’ve never seen my niece or nephew do that, ever. But I’m aware these are only snatched moments.

Give me some perspective. Am I a terrible aunt? What can I do to be better?

We used to look after my husbands niece and nephew when they were that age (admittedly not homeschooling) often for several days. We too had no children, but we knew enough about children - in particular these children - to have certain expectations about behaviour and boundaries. My sister in law would never have dreamt of telling us we couldn't discipline them and if she had we would have never had them stay.

You are the one doing your sister the favour. You're getting nothing out of this support bubble it's all one sided. Maybe it is time to re-evaluate your relationship with your sister and step back from being the unpaid childcare. You have plenty of time to build a relationship with your niece and nephew, but who wants rude, misbehaved, disrespectful children in their house so often if they don't have to?

03diddl

"You seem to be trying to force a big happy family regiment with a lot of reluctant people and in struggling to understand WHY."

yes, this is!
is it that you feel cultural pressure for your bf? I have experience of a family orientated culture and have concluded that it often (not always) goes alongside sexism, heavy kid discipline (sometimes physical), rules....lack of individuality eg if someone is gay there's a massive hoo ha...

just saying there is 10000+ years of culture behind a "close" family like this, and as others have said, you can't force your sis to play ball. wouldn't you rather have the kids really enjoy being with you and jump fpr joy at the thought of spending time with you? its waaaay too much to be their teacher imo and they might well end up resenting you which would be a tragedy

Sounds like the dynamic in your family is VERY different to mine, if my nieces and nephews were playing up at mine my sister would absolutely expect me to discipline them and I have done. When smaller they knew where the naughty step in my house was and that they would lose pudding, screen time etc if they messed about.

Can you talk to sibling and agree some ways you can impose discipline or as a minimum that she will step in and do it if they are misbehaving at your house?

This might sound like an odd question, but do they get much exercise? Kids are like dogs in that if they don’t get a good run around regularly they get bored and disruptive. Mine were usually a lot calmer after they’d been to the park or had a kick about. It sort of chilled them out a bit.

I think you are both over and under invested.
They are her kids- her look out how she raises them. Sounds as if she is t doing the greatest job. Ah well. (Btw- we all tend to think we’d do a better job at parenting!)

When they are in your care, your rules. No ifs, no buts and no discussion with your sister! You do what you think is best. You don’t run a full debrief with her afterwards! Let the kids complain if they want to that auntyLisa put me in time out or whatever. And if she complains to you say s/he was behaving badly - I dealt with it. The end.
You don’t need permission to ‘discipline’. You just say- no cake for tea Because x/y/z.
Stick with specific things in your control. Turning off wifi/ not watching a movie/ going to th e-park / earning a treat.
To be honest- you sound as if you’ve accepted not being in charge- and the kids know.

Time to be less of a friend and more of a responsible adult. They won’t like it. Meh. At the moment you’re not liking it.

As for needing to see them all day everyday to have a close relationship- I think that’s a bit deluded. Wouldn’t be possible if say your had your own kids!

I think that this is pretty standard behaviour for children of that age during a lockdown. They're not getting their social/physical needs met and can only concentrate for short periods. I would do short bursts (up to 20 mins) broken up by a short 5-10 min physical break (running round the garden/Jo wicks/yoga).

Oh and btw- anytime I leave my kids with anyone my parting words are ‘x is in charge and you have to listen and I want to hear how well you have behavied’

So it’s never occurred to mine to play me off against anyone else.

You're seeing them more than my parents see my kids (who they adore). You've made it into "work" by having them for prolonged periods and for home schooling.

Your sis doesn't want you to discipline so embrace that role, be the fun aunt.

Take them out for an afternoon at a weekend, have all the ice cream. Watch films. Play silly loud games. Drop them back off after 2 hours where it's just been fun and you're not bothered about getting them to calm down. I'm sure your (understandable) stress is probably helping to feed this cycle.

Me and my sister were a nightmare for babysitters at that age. Especially if we smelt fear. A bit embarrassing now when I look back. We were bored and pushing the limits. Never behaved like that normally.

@sadie9

Sounds like you are trying to do two jobs. One, be the usual fun Aunt where they come to your house to hang out. Now they have to do 'school' and are forced to stay at your house until they are collected. They are forced to eat the dinners you make them. It's not the fun weekend nuggets and chips or pizza I guess, it's boring old week day 'yucky' dinners. So the dynamic has changed. Being forced to spend time at your house is not the same as going over to the Aunt's for a fun sleep over. The kids are confused by this Dual parenting that has emerged for this lock down. So they are kicking off against the new regime that has been imposed on them. Don't take it personally. Try giving them more options.

You have given me a great deal to think about @sadie9 and @diddl. And others pp too. I do feel I may be forcing a relationship, even a fantasy, that no-one else is interested in. I'm youngish, early 30s, so not naive.

I'm also thinking I may be seeking this out with my bf and am so enamoured of his culture that I am papering over our own relationship troubles.

This may be the first time mumsnetters have made someone LTB without telling them to.

@keepittogethernowlisa for what it's worth, you sound absolutely lovely, and your Dsis and niece and nephew (and your bf, even if you're not sure whether to LTB or not!) are bloody lucky to have you.

It sounds as if you love your family very much and want a close loving relationship with them. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's just probably worth bearing in mind that close loving family relationships come in all sorts of different shapes and sizes and there is no right and wrong! And you do not have to go above and beyond in the way you are doing to 'ensure' you are close to family members.

I wouldn't say this is normal compared to my 10 year old nephew but all kids are v different and given they are in lockdown, they're prob behaving differently. Having said that, 3 x a week is ludicrous.

They sound pretty much like my niece and nephew. Just normal kids with too much energy and sick to the back teeth of lockdown.

I don't bother trying to chat. Just roar like a monster and chase them.

op - I hope you find happiness for your future and get to be your authentic self, best get this straight at the start of the relationship rather than further down the line when there are kids involved imo xx

I hope you find a way through, Op.

@diddl

"And if the op wants the DC to be able to sit and engage at a family meal at their gps' house, surely it's a basic parental responsibility to teach table manners?"

But isn't that up to their parents to decide?

Maybe they aren't interested in family meals for their kids?

This thread has moved on but Diddl I do happen to think family meals are important but it's not just about family meals is it, surely it's a general requirement in life that young children learn how to sit still at a table, learn how to eat with basic good table manners and learn to interact with others while eating? They are just basic life skills like learning how to tie your shoe laces or count to ten. What parents would not want their DC to know that sort of stuff?

Op have just read your update about your relationship troubles. I hope you are ok. So sorry you are going through it but better to discover these things before DC come on the scene so it may be a blessing in disguise in the long run. Sounds like you might benefit by putting more of your energies in to caring for yourself as much as for your niece and nephew . Good luck with everything

Many PP's have spotted the undermining element in your DSis' behaviour, and I agree that it may rebound on her.
One example springs to mind; on a Yr4 trip to the British Museum, one child was caught shoplifting. Only a trifling gewgaw, he had money, it was bravado. Further probing uncovered the worrying fact that it wasn't the first time, rather part of attempts to be "Jack the Lad".
We were coming up to the end of term, and the Christmas party was held on the last afternoon of term (after good behaviour at all the end of term formal occasions). Lessons ended at lunchtime, and the fun could begin! So rather than an ordinary detention, he was collected by his DM at the end of morning school, and missed the party.
We learned later that his best friends were invited over later on that day, for a mini-party at home, "as he was so upset, and Mummy didn't want him to miss out".
So rather than a sober afternoon at home talking in measured tones about the consequences of making bad choices, he got "ner ner ni ner ner".
It did not end well; he was too young to realise the seriousness of what might come, but he wasn't stopped in his tracks, so he sadly progressed into more serious offending and the police became involved. An academically able lad had the blight of a criminal record on his job prospects. (I know that convictions can be spent in most instances of youthful foolishness, but there are some professions and public offices where they never lapse.)
I know this is more extreme, but undermining will rebound on her....
You are perfectly entitled to be "Fun Aunty" if you wish; she rather wants to be "Fun Mummy", and children will always pick op on the fun which can be had by playing one adult off against the other.

Being an aunt gets fun around the time they can start drinking

I think your Dsis is gaslighting you. She well knows what they are like but is playing it down to get you to have them. I think a "I will only have them if x, y and z" is appropriate. If they do not adhere to your rules in your home you should tell your sister you cannot have.them over again until they do.

Tbh your DSis sounds like a CF. You are.doing her an absolutely massive favour

Am also an aunt that does all day childcare for a niece and a nephew - though mine are much younger (1 and 3).

Stuff to try:

• going out for a walk / errand on foot. If the boisterousness/can't sit down ness is because they've not had enough exercise, this might help. If that's not possible/practicable, can you do a you tube workout or something together?
• remember they're people, just with less experience of the world than you - there'll be a way to get them into conversation about interesting-to-them things.
• start with an expectation of reasonable behaviour and don't over do praise. [I usually get a good response when I ask the 3 year old "could I have the milk please?" the same way I might with an adult]
• be partially grateful they feel safe enough with you to behave badly. You're not unpredictable and scary in ways that make them timid / anxious.
• you're allowed house rules for guests. If you wouldn't let your sister or boyfriend do something, then there's no reason to allow the children to do it.
• empathy is a good thing - home school / COVID is hard for everybody, particularly older primary aged children who probably don't have their own mobile phones for texting / emailing friends. You can say "I know it's hard not being able to go to school and see your friends" and equivalents.
• behaviour is communication - when the children behave badly what are they getting out of it? what might they be trying to communicate? Do they miss their parents? Hate school work? Are they hungry? Tired?
• you're also a grown up - work out how to "reset" yourself if you're spending lots of time in conflict with them. How can you take a step back? Not everything needs to be a fight. Remember the disarming power of saying "I love you too". And all the stuff about picking your battles.
• never use food for discipline. Meals are meals if a meal comes with dessert it comes with dessert. If it doesn't, it doesn't.
• spend time with your sister and the children with your brain on watching how they interact with one another.
• Are you getting all the info for parents re home schooling stuff? Usually in schools children wouldn't be sitting for more than 45-60 mins without getting up / a change of activity. Depending on how the lessons are being structured you could come up with jobs to do in the breaks that require a bit of movement.

Lots of judgement on this post. These children are spending all day everyday with each other so yes, there will be bickering. Think about how much has been taken away from them during covid and how strange everything is. Children do tend to regress during times of uncertainty which is why they might be coming across as immature.

I think most kids and parents are having a hard time with homeschooling. It's really hard and you are being an angel in volunteering to help but don't expect it to be fun! Its unrealistic to expect them to sit and do work for hours at a time. At school this would be broken up with group work, talking to friends and general faffing!

Sounds like they have lots of excess energy - take them out for walks and bike rides(they'll complain about this too but feel better for it). It will also be a change of scene for you and breaks up a really long day!

If the arrangement still isn't working for you then you need to just tell your sister and go back to seeing them for a few hours at a time like most aunts.

Taking care of someone else's kids even your own family won't prepare you for having your own someday. All kids have their own personalities, come with their own challalenges and are shaped by their parents and environment. Yes you might learn the basics, feeding, changing etc but not the daily grind. Once you have your own you will learn quickly.

I think you spend too much time with them. Remember kids often will be different around someone who isn't their parent because they think they can try it on. Be firm in your boundaries. My nephew is an only child and needs constant attention, he just won't play by himself whereas I have two children close in age who play together sometimes but often separately quite happily. All kids are different, just because your niece and nephew behave a certain way doesn't mean your own will.

They sound like naughty kids with a disinterested mother. She shouldn’t be foisting them off on you “3 times a week” and forcing you to homeschool. That’s ridiculous. She’s the parent.

They act this way because she doesn’t make an effort to discipline or control them.

Nope, not all kids are like this. I don’t think it’s hard to have nice ones. You just say “no” when they do something wrong. Then they grow up pleasant. Nice manners, polite, able to converse. Being unable to hold a conversation at 8 and 10 is quite startling, really.

They're probably attention-seeking, if their mother has a habit of offloading them on to others.

Thing is, you’re not a terrible aunt. You’re not their mother and are not at all responsible for their upbringing or their awful manners. Why have you adopted this burden of believing you are? Is this something in your family where ‘aunts’ have to raise the random offspring of others? Do the ‘uncles’ lie awake at night wondering why some third cousin’s kid is a bit of an arsehole?

Back off. Your sister might start to parent if she knows her free childcare has dried up.