Help. I really think I might be a terrible aunt

[keepittogethernowlisa]

Will try to keep this short(ish).
I live alone and I’m in a support bubble with my older sister’s family. My niece is 10, nephew 8, they come and stay with me all the time. Over the last two months I’ve seen them at least 3 times a week, 2 of those days will be in the week for homeschooling so full days.

I know homeschooling is tough on everyone but I find it especially tough. I don’t know if it’s just me.

My niece and nephew always seem to be badly behaved. Not really badly behaved as such but constant low-level naughtiness and disruption. They can’t sit for more than 15mins with throwing something or running around the room or going in my bedroom to open the wardrobe. They pull faces, say nonsense words, ask silly questions. Anything to provoke and get a reaction. I try and ask them questions and relate to them but it doesn’t work. At dinner they bicker with each other, refuse to eat things, put their food back into the serving plate. It feels like there is never a quiet moment to actually connect with the kids.

My sister doesn’t see it or pretends not to. She says this is just what having children is like. She will tell me stories of how the kids talk to her “for hours” . “Oh they are the sweetest kids”. They are not around me! I’ve never heard her have a conversation with them for longer than a few minutes, and it always ends with one of them saying something silly or being disruptive and her shouting. She says that’s how all children are. What, all the time?

I want to have kids some day but I wonder is this how it is? I’m struggling to see the positive side of it.

I have a few friends with young children and only see them on Zoom these days or in the park over the summer. They seem much calmer, able to hold conversations with the children. I went for a walk with a friend and her dd and the dd ran off to pick a flower, brought it back to show my friend and they had a ten minute conversation about it. We then kept walking. I’ve never seen my niece or nephew do that, ever. But I’m aware these are only snatched moments.

Give me some perspective. Am I a terrible aunt? What can I do to be better?

Oh and you’re children will be different. You put boundaries in early and it pays off. I rarely tell mine off at all because they know what’s expected of them and they’re lovely imo. Funnily enough the parents of my more challenging nieces and nephews comment how lovely and well behaved mine are and believe it’s pot luck, it isn’t.

@NoOneOwnsTheRainbow

Honestly, the things you described, they are behaving like toddlers. If all the kids were like this, all the time teachers would be actual zookeepers rather than just thinking we are I'd establish boundaries at your house (rather than trying to teach them to do things all the time which is absolutely not your place). Teach them "in this house, we don't put food back on the plate" or "in this house you don't run around looking in private cupboards". Consistently remind them every time they do it. It's ok to do this. When you're responsible for them, you need to set boundaries for their own safety. Whether your sister is teaching them manners and things is largely nothing to do with you, but in your house, it's your rules, and they might just be running wild because no one is stopping them.

I do this all the time. they just laugh or pull faces or run away. by the time i get them back in the lounge the moment has passed. i feel they know that i can't discipline them and so there is zero-consequence to it.

I went through one phase of showing how upset it made me. but that didn't last.

That’s pretty much what my kids are likely during home schooling - you sound like an awesome aunt and can you come to my house as I hate homeschooling with the power of a thousand suns and want my old kids back - we do have nice chats but only when we are out of the house at the weekend...

If your looking after them for an extended period of time then of course you have to be able to discipline them. Has your sister actually told you that this isn't allowed? If so then I'd politely tell her to find some alternative childcare

But why are you having them so much when it's so unenjoyable and you don't seem to have much of a relationship with them, and your sister apparently won't work with you?

I have local nieces my own children's ages, who are siblings, and all the parents of any of them treat all of them the same, like a herd. They know the rules of the house they are in and are expected to follow them. They sometimes wind each other up and get giddy, they accept the consequence to that (nothing draconian, we just redirect their attention / have words as necessary). My own DD when younger couldn't cope with long visits at our house, so we had a strategy for her to get a break. I have others who I see less often and I'm more indulgent. My mum and dad moved in near me and we had to have a conversation about the change in dynamics as they wanted to look after my children sometimes (not now, obvs, Covid) and they had to be able to maintain boundaries with the children. My dad has always found the pendulum hard to balance (too permissive or too strict) but my mum was always great with other people's kids when I was young! If I'm not there they need to be able to say 'no'. If I am there it is mainly my job (or DHs)
All kids are harder to at the moment. You are doing a huge favour having them over for homeschooling. It is your sister's behaviour you need to manage.

@Princessbanana

why are you homeschooling them for your sister? Is she working the days you have them or is it just to give her a break? I would have an open conversation with your sister and tell her how they act when they are at your house, i would also add that you are finding homeschooling and their attitude toward it hard and draining. she may be able to have a word with them about their behavior. If it doesn't improve after the chat I would tell her that its to stressful and you cant do it anymore, your mental health will end up suffering and it wasn't your choice to have two kids and its not your duty to help her either.

Yeah she works those days so drops them and mine. They are with me till dinner. I have no issue with it I would love them to be with me if they were just a bit better behaved. the pp who said it was like a zoo is right.

I don't want to stop seeing them. I just want my Dsis to understand it is a problem and needs to be fixed. I've even showed her on my phone videos but she always has a story "oh they had ice-cream that's why / they were up late yesterday". Always she has an excuse.

@Indecisive12 I wish I could believe that! What if they're not? The thought of years of this is putting me off.

can you not explain to them that you don't want them to act like that and if they continue then you wont take them back to your house again and then follow through if they keep it up?

My daughter is easy. She has been since she learned to walk and talk (she was a horrid baby but let’s just forget that bit!). She is 10 now and we chat lots, she’s calm, responsible, biddable and can easily occupy herself. My sisters 2 (Neice 11 and nephew 7) are way way harder. I have them for childcare at least once or twice a week. Done is just how they are, some is their additional needs (ADHD).

Kids do need discipline but some are naturally harder work than others. Don’t let these two out you off having your own. You need to be allowed to have rules and consequences at your house. They need to be reasonable and achievable but there has to be boundaries. My sisters kids know it’s my house, my rules!

You are a wonderful aunt! I assume you are on furlough or out of work right now so that's why you can help?

From what you say in your last post the kids misbehave at your sister's house too. Unless there is strong evidence to he contrary I would assume they are just undisciplined kids rather than playing you up. Your sister is not honest with you I imagine, or she's kidding herself.

You need to make this a bit easier on yourself or you will resent your sister. It's not OK that you can't discipline them when you are a secondary carer. What discipline method does you sister use? Do you have an idea of what might be helpful? Talk to your sister about what she'd do in your shoes and say you need a method of discipline that will be effective (ie they will care.)

Secondly, take the pressure off the home schooling, the younger one will catch up anyway, and even the older one. Reduce your expectations by 75% - or more if you need to. Leave them to it a bit. Kick them outside for regular exercise. Search the threads here for handy apps and games.

You are a hero! I love my nephew and niece but if I did this I would be patting myself on the back all the flipping time.

Just tell your sister if you can't discipline them and they won't behave you can't mind them.
You will either not have to spend hard days with headwrecking children or you will be able to enforce boundaries and she will have told them to behave as she won't want to miss work.
I started babysitting at 12 and was always expected to correct misbehaviour!
Parents would walk out the door saying "Remember to listen to M0rt"
Also if you think it will be a reciprocal level of childcare when you have kids, think again.

I think that given the DCs’ behaviour, your sister’s response to your concerns and that you’re not enjoying providing childcare, it’d be best to do way, way less childcare!

My twins are 2.5 and aren't as bad as that. They can sit and eat dinner nicely for 30 mins. They do run around but also can sit quietly.

I have older nieces and nephews roughly the age of yours and they aren't like you describe either.

I'm sure it's not "abnormal" but it does sound like their concentration levels are low and maybe boundaries at home are too lax.

I wouldn't accept them going into your wardrobe and id expect them to know not to put food back in the communal pot too.

My nephews 8 and is like that. He does not stop and does not stop talking. My sisters basically transformed one of her spare bedrooms in to a full on classroom he has zoom lessons the whole day 9am till 3pm so she can just leave him to it she would have had a hard time coping otherwise. You sound like a fabulous aunt

Don’t let them put you off having children, honestly it’s so different with your own. Plus they’ll be different children. If you can’t discipline them how about you suggest taking them out for a walk for an hour or two instead to give your sister a break, less pressure and outside and leave your sister to do the homeschooling.
Or set a timetable with work times, break times, snack times lunch etc. Mine are actually missing their school routine and keep trying to get me to stick to that. And say if we do 30 minutes we’ll play for 30. But you’ll have to follow through with you haven’t done x yet so we’ll cut down on playtime. Would your sister be against that?

OP, some people may not agree with me but if you are involved with the kids to such extent (home schooling, being with them all day, feeding them etc) then you should be allowed to discipline them to some extent. If they were my children and you my Dsis, I would insist on it. How else will they learn? You are responsible for them for extended amount of time so there should absolutely be boundaries and you should be given some level of authority. Same as in school IMO.

I have a 10 year old. She sits at her desk and does her live lessons with little to no help (I pop in all the time to check) she moves only for the loo or on a break. Last lockdown she spent all day with her Aunt as I was working and she did the same for her. She is my youngest dc I have 2 older ones and even my worst behaved wouldn't behave as you describe.

That said, my children (similar ages) are genuinely well behaved at home when it is just us, as a family, and we are relaxed. But they always (in pre covid times when such a thing was possible) behaved badly around my parents and sister. Not quite as extreme as you are describing but along the same sort of lines, just general silliness. It’s a combination of being excited and showing off around family, and responding to me being stressed.

See, I genuinely don't get this. My son behaves far better for other adults than he does for his parents, and also can be expected to behave better in other settings, like other people's houses, school, etc. I'd much rather it was this way round than he behaved badly for other other adults. If my child behaved the way OP's niece and nephew do to my sister, I'd be MORTIFIED.

It's appalling that you have tried to discipline them and they have resisted @keepittogethernowlisa. I can't suggest anything except that no, your children will not be like this, as you simply won't allow it! Some parents give in to avoid the checkout tantrum, some ride it out as they know it builds expectations of decent behaviour in future... it's worth the temporary pain for the long term gain.

And the occasional late night and ill-advised ice cream (? Never caused bad behaviour in my kid) is not responsible for a child's day to day behaviour, it's a ridiculous suggestion but your sister is never going to admit that her children are badly behaved because she can't be arsed with the hard work of discipline (which doesn't mean punishment, although a lot people use it to mean that).

You are NOT a terrible aunt!

Thank you for your kind comments.

For me to discipline them would require a major change to the family dynamic and I think my Dsis wouldn't do it. I did get frustrated last month and say I wouldn't do it without more discipline but Dsis just huffed and I didn't see them for two weeks. It seems better to keep the peace now.

@partyatthepalace they are naughty at their home too. Dsis says it is because they get nervous because of "guests". But now they are in my home so much surely they must be used to me.

Its the backchat and silly voices that upset me most. I feel disrespected. When I told my Dsis in front of them she just said not to take it personally and told the kids "don't behave like that, Aunty Lisa is sensitive" which it worse i think because it suggests it is my fault for reacting so.

I also have a child like this (ADHD, ASD though). She can keep a lid on it at school and in childcare but her behaviour at home got worse and worse in the last lockdown. School is school and home is home and she couldn't cope with blending the two

It's immaterial though what other DC do or don't do. The OP can't solve this without cooperation from the mum and sounds like she's in denial!

Out of interest, OP, what would your sis say if you watched CBBC with them, went for walks and played games? Would they be better? She could do a bit of reading and maths with them when they got home. I think asking a non parent to home school is asking too much.

my kids have their moments, as do my nieces and nephews. but - op, not sure if this has already been said as I have skim read the threads, do you think they feel that their mum should be at home for them more? doing their home ed? just you said they were late to bed once and their behaviour must to some extent, be a reaction to your ds and how she's bringing them up

Hmm. Just read your update. I also have a dodgy relationship with my sister (better now her DC are teenage) and I'd say you can rarely have a better relationship with nieces and nephews than you do with the parents. The fish rots from the head!!

Maybe consider why it's so important to you to hang onto a relationship with 3 people who treat you disrespectfully.

@TheNoodlesIncident

That said, my children (similar ages) are genuinely well behaved at home when it is just us, as a family, and we are relaxed. But they always (in pre covid times when such a thing was possible) behaved badly around my parents and sister. Not quite as extreme as you are describing but along the same sort of lines, just general silliness. It’s a combination of being excited and showing off around family, and responding to me being stressed.

See, I genuinely don't get this. My son behaves far better for other adults than he does for his parents, and also can be expected to behave better in other settings, like other people's houses, school, etc. I'd much rather it was this way round than he behaved badly for other other adults. If my child behaved the way OP's niece and nephew do to my sister, I'd be MORTIFIED.

It's appalling that you have tried to discipline them and they have resisted @keepittogethernowlisa. I can't suggest anything except that no, your children will not be like this, as you simply won't allow it! Some parents give in to avoid the checkout tantrum, some ride it out as they know it builds expectations of decent behaviour in future... it's worth the temporary pain for the long term gain.

And the occasional late night and ill-advised ice cream (? Never caused bad behaviour in my kid) is not responsible for a child's day to day behaviour, it's a ridiculous suggestion but your sister is never going to admit that her children are badly behaved because she can't be arsed with the hard work of discipline (which doesn't mean punishment, although a lot people use it to mean that).

You are NOT a terrible aunt!

I've asked her this @TheNoodlesIncident. I can't believe they behave like this at school. I've looked over their shoulders on Zoom to see the other kids and they seem fine, but to be fair niece and nephew are fine during camera-on time. it just seems one to one interaction that is too much.

Not allowed to discipline them? Have to wait until the end of the day and tell their mother? Not on.
I loved visiting my aunties, sometimes staying over; as an only child, playing with my cousins was something I enjoyed, and it was drummed into me that if I were visiting, it was "Auntie's Hose, Auntie's Rules"!
If I complained, I'd probably get a ticking off for upsetting Auntie! This might sound a bit harsh, but it didn't feel that way to know where I stood; by the time I was 8, my lovely auntie and uncle were taking me along with their two on family holidays. I'd learned how to behave so that I "could be taken anywhere".( Don't get me wrong, I was no angel, but the principle was there!)
Not giving discipline is an insidious form of neglect; she's doing them no favours.
Your sister may find that she ends up with two offspring who don't get invited anywhere; it might give her pause for thought if you say that you can't really manage them at the moment.

There is absolutely no way I would agree to look after someone else’s children (including my nephews and nieces) all day long, with homeschooling chucked in to boot, if I wasn’t allowed to discipline them. Your sister is so beyond unreasonable here as to be ridiculous. Rest assured, you are NOT a bad aunt - your sister, however, is a total CF!