Help. I really think I might be a terrible aunt

[keepittogethernowlisa]

Will try to keep this short(ish).
I live alone and I’m in a support bubble with my older sister’s family. My niece is 10, nephew 8, they come and stay with me all the time. Over the last two months I’ve seen them at least 3 times a week, 2 of those days will be in the week for homeschooling so full days.

I know homeschooling is tough on everyone but I find it especially tough. I don’t know if it’s just me.

My niece and nephew always seem to be badly behaved. Not really badly behaved as such but constant low-level naughtiness and disruption. They can’t sit for more than 15mins with throwing something or running around the room or going in my bedroom to open the wardrobe. They pull faces, say nonsense words, ask silly questions. Anything to provoke and get a reaction. I try and ask them questions and relate to them but it doesn’t work. At dinner they bicker with each other, refuse to eat things, put their food back into the serving plate. It feels like there is never a quiet moment to actually connect with the kids.

My sister doesn’t see it or pretends not to. She says this is just what having children is like. She will tell me stories of how the kids talk to her “for hours” . “Oh they are the sweetest kids”. They are not around me! I’ve never heard her have a conversation with them for longer than a few minutes, and it always ends with one of them saying something silly or being disruptive and her shouting. She says that’s how all children are. What, all the time?

I want to have kids some day but I wonder is this how it is? I’m struggling to see the positive side of it.

I have a few friends with young children and only see them on Zoom these days or in the park over the summer. They seem much calmer, able to hold conversations with the children. I went for a walk with a friend and her dd and the dd ran off to pick a flower, brought it back to show my friend and they had a ten minute conversation about it. We then kept walking. I’ve never seen my niece or nephew do that, ever. But I’m aware these are only snatched moments.

Give me some perspective. Am I a terrible aunt? What can I do to be better?

Mine are 4 and 6 years old. And my 4 year old will act up and say silly words and laugh uncontrollably. But she would definitely not put food back, open other ppl wardrobe ect. She knows right from wrong at lot of times.
It more sounds like they need more structure and routine. We try keeping weekdays to how it was before lockdown and that generally helps with behaviour.
Perhaps they dont have long chats because they are not use to it at home? We try reading with the girls every day and I find it brings some fun and interesting conversations, like today with dd age 6 that tried to understand why farts smells but you can't see them funny and silly but still can give interesting talks...

@twoshedsjackson

Not allowed to discipline them? Have to wait until the end of the day and tell their mother? Not on. I loved visiting my aunties, sometimes staying over; as an only child, playing with my cousins was something I enjoyed, and it was drummed into me that if I were visiting, it was "Auntie's Hose, Auntie's Rules"! If I complained, I'd probably get a ticking off for upsetting Auntie! This might sound a bit harsh, but it didn't feel that way to know where I stood; by the time I was 8, my lovely auntie and uncle were taking me along with their two on family holidays. I'd learned how to behave so that I "could be taken anywhere".( Don't get me wrong, I was no angel, but the principle was there!) Not giving discipline is an insidious form of neglect; she's doing them no favours. Your sister may find that she ends up with two offspring who don't get invited anywhere; it might give her pause for thought if you say that you can't really manage them at the moment.

I feel the same way! I have a long-term bf and I'd love to take them out with us places. I simply can't with the way they behave. Plus it would put him off having kids for me for sure!

I feel they are missing out.

@keepittogethernowlisa - can I also ask you why, given you are the one doing your sister a (massive) favour, you are so reluctant to put down reasonable boundaries about this? Surely she is the one who stands to lose out most if she kicks off or you don’t see the kids because she won’t agree to you setting the rules for your own home?

I agree with those saying "my house my rules". If you are not allowed to discipline them, that is quite probably causing the problems and certainly makes it impossible to address them. However, you CAN say that they can't come.

If I were you, I'd think carefully what your basic dealbreaker rules are. Then say to your sister as well as the children, if you want to come then X Y and Z. If you play up I'm taking you home.

And then follow through on this.

Good luck!

They sound far younger than 8 and 10. You are doing them a massive favour and I wouldn’t carry on without being able to discipline them. I would be cross with my 4yo for much of the behaviour you’ve described.

Its the backchat and silly voices that upset me most. I feel disrespected. When I told my Dsis in front of them she just said not to take it personally and told the kids "don't behave like that, Aunty Lisa is sensitive" hmm which it worse i think because it suggests it is my fault for reacting so.

Your sister is majorly taking the piss. That’s such a complete and utter cop out and so undermining. I’ve got an 8 year old who can be a bit annoying, as they all can. But he would never dream of backchatting an aunty, or messing about at the dinner table at someone else’s house.

My dd is 6 and she can play up but it's occasional, not constant. Home schooling isn't fun but she does it - I sit with her and give a lot of guidance and encouragement, but she does sit and do it.

She's generally a lot more well behaved in other people's homes than she is with me. Not that she's a nightmare at home or anything, but I can't imagine her going through someone else's wardrobe for example. The only exception I can think of is if she was at one of her cousins houses and they were doing something like that, then she might join in. She definitely wouldn't do it of her own accord.

It sounds as though your niece and nephew haven't really been taught boundaries or what acceptable behaviour is. In your shoes I'd make sure they knew how they could/could not behave in my home, and if the bad behaviour doesn't stop then tell your dsis that you won't continue to have them on those days. You're doing her a massive favour after all, it shouldn't be causing you so much stress.

If they are alone with you, why dont you try and discipline them? My sister is quite strict (she doesnt have her own kids yet). My brother and sil are very laid back and their child can do whatever they want. When my kids are with my sister they are really well behaved. She does have to be stern with them especially at the beginning and set some rules.
When they are with my brother its just crazy! Probably also because its 3 kids, but their no discipline approach is definitely part of it because when the 3 kids are with me, they are fine. Kids learn pretty quickly which person accepts what behaviour.

My DC can be so difficult (mostly with me/DH). But she would also be in giant trouble if she backchatted an adult looking after her and she knows it.

OP, you do not have an aunting problem. You have a DSis problem.

Well they get it from their mum!

She doesn't take you seriously/treat you as an adult-why would they?

They see you bowing to her wishes-why would they think that they have to take any notice of you?

To be blunt why are you letting your sister (and others in your family?) walk all over you like this? Her kids are being rude and disrespectful and you’re just expected to just put up and shut up? Why do you feel like you can’t stand up for yourself? I know it’s not like they’re real terrors and it may be low level stuff but this seems all sorts of unfair!

I’m not loving your sister TBH, but am sure she has her own pressures etc. However it doesn’t sound like she is too bothered c attainment, and your main job is babysitting.

So I’d just do that - focus on fun stuff - reading, vaguely educational telly (decent quality films, CBBC) get a few maths and English games etc - if they won’t do them, don’t worry about it. take them out for walks bike rides to wear them out, and give them regular breaks to be on the their phones/games whatever they think is a break.

Figure out what treats they like - if they are actively rude they don’t get them. Ask your sister to get them to bed on time. And beyond that sit it out.

And plan a holiday for summer!

Its the backchat and silly voices that upset me most. I feel disrespected. When I told my Dsis in front of them she just said not to take it personally and told the kids "don't behave like that, Aunty Lisa is sensitive" hmm which it worse i think because it suggests it is my fault for reacting so.

Your sister is not coming across well at all. That interaction would have been enough for me to put an end to the arrangement. She's taking the piss.

You're going to have to try and implement a "my house, my rules" routine - which I think would actually do them a lot of good - or stop having them at all.

If you're looking after them for full days you need to be able to manage their behaviour for the sake of the dcs as well as your own. You are responsible for them and their behaviour when they are in your care. It's not very easy for your sister to discipline them e.g. for being rude or arguing when she's not there on the scene at the time.

Kids are very good at learning that there different behaviour is acceptable in different places (e.g. school vs home) so you need to set your own ground rules in your own home.

This doesn't need to be seen as 'discipline' or telling off, just natural consequences. e,g, at my house we sit at the table for tea and if you sit and eat up nicely we'll have time to do XYZ later. In this house let's take it in turns to speak. Let's try listening for one minute then talking for one minute in turn. If you can't keep calm then you need to go and spend some time sitting in the other room alone until you feel ready to listen. etc,

Nobody can act the fun happy aunty all the time. Sometimes you need to be the adult in control who sets the firm fair boundaries. You will ALL be happier if you take some control.

I do think my Dsis is making the problem worse. But I can't get through to her. She just stops me seeing the kids if there's an issues and would rather pay for childcare than tackle the naughtiness.

I put up with it because I want to see them - and I want them to have a family life. Even before covid they didn't have big family meals. So they don't get to see their grandparents or other family (Dsis's DH's brother has kids too).

They sound like a right handful, if I'm honest.
Well done to you for being hands-on with them in the first place but they do sound like hard work and that they might need some boundaries.
Please don't feel that this a template for your own experience of children, as it will they will be your children, in your house with your own behaviour management in place.

That being said, I'm wondering if you might need to cut back on the free childcare as it sounds quite wearying. Just saying.

@TheNoodlesIncident

That said, my children (similar ages) are genuinely well behaved at home when it is just us, as a family, and we are relaxed. But they always (in pre covid times when such a thing was possible) behaved badly around my parents and sister. Not quite as extreme as you are describing but along the same sort of lines, just general silliness. It’s a combination of being excited and showing off around family, and responding to me being stressed.

See, I genuinely don't get this. My son behaves far better for other adults than he does for his parents, and also can be expected to behave better in other settings, like other people's houses, school, etc. I'd much rather it was this way round than he behaved badly for other other adults. If my child behaved the way OP's niece and nephew do to my sister, I'd be MORTIFIED.

It's appalling that you have tried to discipline them and they have resisted @keepittogethernowlisa. I can't suggest anything except that no, your children will not be like this, as you simply won't allow it! Some parents give in to avoid the checkout tantrum, some ride it out as they know it builds expectations of decent behaviour in future... it's worth the temporary pain for the long term gain.

And the occasional late night and ill-advised ice cream (? Never caused bad behaviour in my kid) is not responsible for a child's day to day behaviour, it's a ridiculous suggestion but your sister is never going to admit that her children are badly behaved because she can't be arsed with the hard work of discipline (which doesn't mean punishment, although a lot people use it to mean that).

You are NOT a terrible aunt!

Ah, but my DC DO behave well for other adults. They behave well for me, for DH, at clubs, in everyone else's houses, in school, for DH's family, for friends. It is just my family who seem to trigger this kind of silly behaviour and the only conclusion I can draw is that we have got into a vicious circle of me getting stressed around my family and the DC then falling into a pattern of immature behaviour as a reaction to this. But I'm all too aware of the behaviour, I acknowledge it, apologise for it and deal with it, I would never stop my parents or sister pulling them up on bad behaviour, I apologise to my parents after each and every visit but I never have to apologise to anyone else for the simple reason that they never behave like this for anyone else.

I just posted this as an example of the face that sometimes there are just some relationships that don't gel well for whatever reason. Absolutely no fault of the OP's, just personality and situational dynamics...

But that said, any aunt who is doing her Dsis a huge favour in managing the homeschooling for her niece and nephew (I would never in a million years ask this of my Dsis!) should absolutely be allowed to discipline them and it is ridiculous that you can't. Maybe you need to lay the law down a little, @keepittogethernowlisa, and say that you will no longer be able to homeschool them or have them in your house if you are not allowed to manage their behaviour effectively. And then your Dsis would have to do what most other working parents in the country are having to do - juggle their work with their DC's homeschooling 24/7.

She is incredibly lucky to have you and you are certainly NOT a terrible aunt.

@Haffdonga

If you're looking after them for full days you need to be able to manage their behaviour for the sake of the dcs as well as your own. You are responsible for them and their behaviour when they are in your care. It's not very easy for your sister to discipline them e.g. for being rude or arguing when she's not there on the scene at the time.

Kids are very good at learning that there different behaviour is acceptable in different places (e.g. school vs home) so you need to set your own ground rules in your own home.

This doesn't need to be seen as 'discipline' or telling off, just natural consequences. e,g, at my house we sit at the table for tea and if you sit and eat up nicely we'll have time to do XYZ later. In this house let's take it in turns to speak. Let's try listening for one minute then talking for one minute in turn. If you can't keep calm then you need to go and spend some time sitting in the other room alone until you feel ready to listen. etc,

Nobody can act the fun happy aunty all the time. Sometimes you need to be the adult in control who sets the firm fair boundaries. You will ALL be happier if you take some control.

I think my Dsis thinks it is fun to undermine me. Eg, treats. If I don't give them treats for bad behaviour, she will give them that evening "to make it up". Or if one acts up and I take her outside the lounge for a timeout when i come back the nephew will have taken something out of the fridge or moved my laptop. So it takes time to fix that and the lesson is lost.

I can't see a way out. I don't want to stop seeing them.

Stop having them during the week-it's not your job to homeschool them and until they stop disrespecting you they shouldn't be coming.
Just see them as a normal aunt would. You shouldn't try to be their saviour.

You’re not a terrible aunt - you sound like a bit of a saint to me! And, no, what you describe is not normal for kids of that age. (Mine are a similar age and neither they, nor their friends, behave like that.). Okay - as a pp said - some kids are naturally easier than others....but you basically reap what you sow. So your own kids are unlikely to behave like that, because you’ll have put a stop to it before it gets to that point. Don’t let it put you off!

It is just my family who seem to trigger this kind of silly behaviour and the only conclusion I can draw is that we have got into a vicious circle of me getting stressed around my family and the DC then falling into a pattern of immature behaviour as a reaction to this.

@FlyingPandas do you think there is a way out of this vicious circle?

Welllll

If they were really so perfect, would she farm them out to you so much?

I think she's overwhelmed by them and this offloading habit of hers is making them act out.

@keepittogethernowlisa

I do think my Dsis is making the problem worse. But I can't get through to her. She just stops me seeing the kids if there's an issues and would rather pay for childcare than tackle the naughtiness.

I put up with it because I want to see them - and I want them to have a family life. Even before covid they didn't have big family meals. So they don't get to see their grandparents or other family (Dsis's DH's brother has kids too).

I imagine she's stopping you seeing the kids because you're complaining about their behaviour. Perhaps her thought process is Well if you don't like it then I'll find an alternative which is actually fair enough.

What can your sister do to make them behave when she isn't there? Any alternative childcare that she pays for would provide discipline if needed so why can't you?

You want them to have a family life. Family life comes with family rules and behaviour and sometimes aunties who teach table manners. Children don't come fully formed and trained. You can't expect your sister to say a magic word at home and 'fix' them for next time they visit, so if you want them to have big family meals - then teach them how,

If 8 and 10 year olds can't be trusted to go out for a day due to behaviour there is something seriously wrong. I would have no qualms about taking my DS (4yo) and his best friend (5yo) to a zoo or somewhere by myself because they can both be trusted to behave and we would have a lovely (if exhausting day).
Just want to reassure you OP that having your own wouldn't be like this. You would be able to put in firm and consistent boundaries and discipline where necessary. The toddler years can be a bit crazy but I find that by 4 most children are pretty civilised and time spent with them is enjoyable.