Help. I really think I might be a terrible aunt

[keepittogethernowlisa]

Will try to keep this short(ish).
I live alone and I’m in a support bubble with my older sister’s family. My niece is 10, nephew 8, they come and stay with me all the time. Over the last two months I’ve seen them at least 3 times a week, 2 of those days will be in the week for homeschooling so full days.

I know homeschooling is tough on everyone but I find it especially tough. I don’t know if it’s just me.

My niece and nephew always seem to be badly behaved. Not really badly behaved as such but constant low-level naughtiness and disruption. They can’t sit for more than 15mins with throwing something or running around the room or going in my bedroom to open the wardrobe. They pull faces, say nonsense words, ask silly questions. Anything to provoke and get a reaction. I try and ask them questions and relate to them but it doesn’t work. At dinner they bicker with each other, refuse to eat things, put their food back into the serving plate. It feels like there is never a quiet moment to actually connect with the kids.

My sister doesn’t see it or pretends not to. She says this is just what having children is like. She will tell me stories of how the kids talk to her “for hours” . “Oh they are the sweetest kids”. They are not around me! I’ve never heard her have a conversation with them for longer than a few minutes, and it always ends with one of them saying something silly or being disruptive and her shouting. She says that’s how all children are. What, all the time?

I want to have kids some day but I wonder is this how it is? I’m struggling to see the positive side of it.

I have a few friends with young children and only see them on Zoom these days or in the park over the summer. They seem much calmer, able to hold conversations with the children. I went for a walk with a friend and her dd and the dd ran off to pick a flower, brought it back to show my friend and they had a ten minute conversation about it. We then kept walking. I’ve never seen my niece or nephew do that, ever. But I’m aware these are only snatched moments.

Give me some perspective. Am I a terrible aunt? What can I do to be better?

@FlyingPandas

"Only then I'd only see them on weekends and we would never have a close relationship."

OP this is batshit. Is this what you seriously think?

You can have a close relationship with nieces and nephews even if you only see them on weekends - and even if you see them a lot less than that!

Despite what I've posted upthread, my DSis and my DC have a close relationship. She probably saw them once every month or so in non Covid times.

You do not have to see your niece and nephew on a daily basis to be close to them.

I do think this yeah @FlyingPandas. I mean, that's what a family is, right? I hate that their teachers see them more than their flesh and blood. that can't be right.

@keepittogethernowlisa No, that's not what a family is.

Most teachers see children for longer periods of time than their own parents during the normal school working week. That's normal and healthy.

Do you think you have a slightly romanticised ideal of what a family 'should' be?

My friends grandson is a bit like this. Really irritating. Just acts silly and 'bonkers' as he calls it all the time. I think my friend and the rest of his family think it is cute and funny, it isnt. It really isn't.

What can your sister do to make them behave when she isn't there? Any alternative childcare that she pays for would provide discipline if needed so why can't you?

You want them to have a family life. Family life comes with family rules and behaviour and sometimes aunties who teach table manners. Children don't come fully formed and trained. You can't expect your sister to say a magic word at home and 'fix' them for next time they visit, so if you want them to have big family meals - then teach them how,

Sorry but I really disagree with this.

Your sister could do lots to help them behave while at their aunts house. She could back up her sister and acknowledge that there is a problem first of all. Then she could set out clear expectations for the DC as to how they should behave at their aunt's house and she could then check up by way of a star chart or by or simply asking "how did you behave at keepitogrthernowlisa's house today? No treats at the weekend unless you have behaved yourselves. Oh did you x look in your aunt's wardrobe today when she had asked you not to do that? Right, that means four hours less tablet time this weekend. "

In fact, I would go as far to say that the sister's laissez faire attitude is probably what is undermining op's ability to discipline the DC. "Well we don't have to behave that way at home, so why do I have to here?" sort of thing?

It's exactly the same relationship that a parent should have with a school - if the school is half decent of course - you should back one another up and be consistent with expectations. It's not rocket science.

And if the op wants the DC to be able to sit and engage at a family meal at their gps' house, surely it's a basic parental responsibility to teach table manners?

Op, honestly, if your sister is not willing to support or back you up, when you are doing her a favour, and she is willing to pay for childcare, then I would let her go right ahead.

I still don't understand why you want to see them. They and your sister disrespect you and they act like a pair of two year olds.
What about seeing them but not doing home schooling so you see them in the afternoon or on weekends.
If she's got other childcare then let her use it and just do fun stuff with the children.
Do the rest of the family not see them much because of the children's behaviour?
Don't worry about your own children. You know children need love and support along with boundaries and consequences so you already know more than some parents.
I really would arrange to see them but at a time when you don't need to homeschool.
Its really rude to expect you to do all the hard work and also decide you can't tell the children off.

" I hate that their teachers see them more than their flesh and blood. that can't be right."

Good grief!

You seem fixated on having a relationship with them-but they are 8 & 10 so surely you have one by now?

"And if the op wants the DC to be able to sit and engage at a family meal at their gps' house, surely it's a basic parental responsibility to teach table manners?"

But isn't that up to their parents to decide?

Maybe they aren't interested in family meals for their kids?

You are essentially co parenting these children having them 3 full days a week. Your DSIS has no idea how lucky she is.

You need to be all on the same page about discipline. If she is more into gentle parenting that's fine but there must be house rules (ie if he daughter was hitting her son across the head she would do something to stop them and there would be consequences). You should be doing the same thing as her for consistency.

I am very strict and when I keep my niece and nephew they follow the same rules as my children. If they are mucking about at tea time I'm not going to give them a dessert afterwards, if someone gets hurt they have to apologise (even if it takes 4 hours!), we use naughty step when we need to. These rules are totally different at home and my very strong willed nephew aged 2 took a long time to speak to me as I was always the baddie but now he is a delight when I have him and I'm more likely to take him more often. My SIL is an excellent mum and she is strong on things that I struggle with (home schooling for one!).

Only then I'd only see them on weekends and we would never have a close relationship.

That’s not true.

Look - you’re not their parent. In your house you can discipline them and put your foot down if they’re playing up, and you should. The consequence of that is that your sister might look for alternative childcare. And that’s OK.

Be a fun aunt not a childminder or homeschool teacher.

Stop thinking you need to ‘fix’ them - you’re not their parent. Let go of the expectations you have.

Sounds like you are trying to do two jobs.
One, be the usual fun Aunt where they come to your house to hang out.
Now they have to do 'school' and are forced to stay at your house until they are collected.
They are forced to eat the dinners you make them. It's not the fun weekend nuggets and chips or pizza I guess, it's boring old week day 'yucky' dinners.
So the dynamic has changed.
Being forced to spend time at your house is not the same as going over to the Aunt's for a fun sleep over.
The kids are confused by this Dual parenting that has emerged for this lock down. So they are kicking off against the new regime that has been imposed on them.
Don't take it personally. Try giving them more options.

In fact, I would go as far to say that the sister's laissez faire attitude is probably what is undermining op's ability to discipline the DC. "Well we don't have to behave that way at home, so why do I have to here?" sort of thing?

See @Hampotsandonions that's my view exactly. It's like she behaves as if what I want is so unreasonable and not how they do it at home. Whereas it seems to me like just normal behaviour. I mean how will they cope at a friend's house?

I think your boyfriend is right, you’re trying for a relationship that just is not the norm. My children see their teachers less than their grandparents but they love their grandparents. You sound as though you want these children to be the the children you haven’t had and be a third parent.

You don’t need her to agree with ‘your rules’ at 8 & 10 if your rules are just basic respect and table manners. Who cares if you withhold dessert and your sister gives it at her house? So what? It’s an out of sight out of mind issue. You just enforce the rules at your house. And stop having them over if they don’t behave.

@keepittogethernowlisa

In fact, I would go as far to say that the sister's laissez faire attitude is probably what is undermining op's ability to discipline the DC. "Well we don't have to behave that way at home, so why do I have to here?" sort of thing?

See @Hampotsandonions that's my view exactly. It's like she behaves as if what I want is so unreasonable and not how they do it at home. Whereas it seems to me like just normal behaviour. I mean how will they cope at a friend's house?

But it’s not your problem or your worry to concern yourself with how will they behave at a friends house. When we have a new friend over I tell my children ‘play wherever but not in my room’. If the friend tries to go in my room my child tells them, my child also says we don’t do that. I will also tell children in my own house and have said if you don’t listen to me you won’t be get invited again if it’s a major issue.

The therapist I eventually took my DD to after 4 months of home school hell earlier this year said much the same as sadie9.

You can’t change your sister’s parenting.

You can change how you discipline the children when at your house, and if the consequence of that is that your sister finds childcare elsewhere then that is her choice.

You can only change your behaviour and responses.

At 8 & 10 you can have a chat with them to come up with ‘homeschool rules’, to get them to plan what’s on the dinner menu etc.

But you can also just say ‘This is how it is here, kids.’ And be firm and consistent.

You can’t change their parenting or personalities, though.

Can I ask how old you are OP? Apologies if I’m wrong but you sound quite young. We are all perfect parents before we have our own children!

I also think you’ve got an unrealistic view of the relationship you should have with your niece and nephew. And despite others saying this behaviour sounds terrible, I think it sounds relatively normal, especially for siblings who often argue and annoy each other - especially when they’re bored (as I’m sure they will be doing homeschooling).

If I were you I’d stop trying to be a second mum to them. That’s your sister’s role. You may disagree with how she disciplines them but ultimately it’s not your business and I think you’re overstepping the mark trying to tell her how to raise her DC. Enjoy being their aunt, do the fun things with them, take them for walks (always a good way to get them talking to you), to the park, watch films and eat sweets. Chill out and have a laugh with them. They will probably respond a lot better than what they do now.

I take it that your dsis doesn't tell their teachers that they aren't allowed to discipline them.

My niece and nephew were the opposite especially my niece. She was as good as gold for me me but played up to her dps. I was allowed to discipline them though but had to very rarely.
This non discipline is doing them no favours. They are going to be terrible teens and your dsis is really going to reap what she sows.

You really need to make it your house your rules and ignore your dsis for your sanity and for them. They really do need boundaries. Keep on the way they are going and when do do get to socialise again they might find no one wants to have them around their kids.

Let them know what is acceptable and what isn't in your home.
DS has a pal who can be wild he knows in this house there is no climbing on furniture or playing ball he gets it.
If they refuse then punish them by taking something.
I was very involved with my Dsis DC before mine I was judgey etc and I was wrong, I saw that once I had my own.
Even small her DC knew the rules in my home.

Mine are the same. Both have, related but different, SEN issues. Total nightmare and even one at home is too much, both is more than twice the work. I’m sure other mums judge but they have no idea. Equally mine aren’t as bad as others with more severe presentations. I’ve no idea how those parents manage.

Even without SEN, some kids are more lively. The world needs different type of people to contribute.

If you want an easy ride, have one child and find a man who was a calm kid.

Just out of interest, when you had the two week break of your sister sending the children to paid childcare - who instigated a return to "normal"?

Your sister sounds like a nasty piece of work. I'm shocked that she treats you with such disrespect and I'm shocked that you're such a glutton for punishment. What was your home life like growing up? You seem to be trying to force a big happy family regiment with a lot of reluctant people and in struggling to understand WHY.

"You seem to be trying to force a big happy family regiment with a lot of reluctant people and in struggling to understand WHY."

It is hard to understand isn't it?

Op seems to want to play happy families with her boyfriend & also take the kids for family meals to her parents?

I do think that the sister is taking advantage re childcare, but equally Op seems desperate to use this time to have a relationship that isn't already there?

I'm thinking that it isn't there because Op's sister doesn't want it to be?

They sound awful and I have no idea why you are putting up with this.
You can have a close relationship with them and not be walked all over by them.
I’d just see them at weekends and be an aunt instead of this weird parent thing you have going on.

As a step parent I can say, yes this behaviour sounds immature for those ages, but they are how they are, judging them doesn't help (I know I've done plenty of it). Empathy and compassion, as hard as it is when they're winding you up will help you connect with them more. Nothing wrong with naming behaviour or feelings. There will be reasons they are how they are, personality, parenting etc, but you won't be able to fix things. They will grow out of it too. You sound amazing with everything you're doing for them.

Oh God, there’s nothing worse than other people’s children.

I don’t actually think that.

I can identify pretty quickly which of my good friends’ children I like, and which I’d happily never spend time with again, until they turn 30 and even then I doubt I’ll be keen.

And it all boils down to how good the parents are at bringing up nice kids.

A fair few parents just basically can’t be bothered. This really is how it appears to me.

They can’t be bothered telling their kids off, or to stop doing annoying things. Or worse - make a half-hearted attempt to tell them off, but then give up (because it’s too much effort), so the child knows that if they’re annoying for long enough, they get to go on being annoying into eternity.

All the nice children I know have had clear, simple, consistent expectations around their behaviour - both negative and positive, from the beginning.

All the ‘good’ (for want of a better word) children I know get plenty of attention for all the positive things they do, so they’re not acting up and playing out to get attention by any means necessary - inevitably by being being annoying little shits, because they know that this definitely does get them attention.

It’s not rocket science at all.

Lots of kids have a massive head start in life by being neurotypical, socially-aware, and without any particular behavioural issues.

If this is you, and your child/ren, then maximising on that from the outset pays off dividends in the long run, when your children know exactly what’s expected of them as they grow up.

OP - I think you’re an absolutely amazing aunt for doing so much for your N&N. I do think you’re stuck in a rock and hard place, in terms of your mind-bogglingly ungrateful sister.

But believe me - your own kids will be a very different kettle of fish!