Who would even know 400 people willing to break LD law?

[TheQueef]

Just saw it on the news.
Any of you could muster 400 people to break the law?
I could maybe get 20 out of everyone I've ever known, how do you even ask?
It was a school to boot! No teaching but come to school for a secret bash!

So...
YANBU no I couldn't gather a big group of rule breakers.
YABU I could easily get that many, everyone is at it.

You can't disband such communities. You have to primarily engage with leadership. And this may mean punishment directed at leaders appropriately for persistant refusal to engage if it is endangering life if the law allows.

It has to be a multi faceted approach though with the emphasis on education first, punishment second. And there needs to be a good look as to how the government is failing to get this.

Unfortunately you can't just stop indoctrination with the click of your fingers. Its a long term issue. If you go after schools you risk, unground illegal schools or kids being home schooled and off local government radars which poses different risks.

No easy solutions.

We aren't talking about selfishness here. We are talking about people who hold religious belief above all else. And in the case of some of the leadership - above the law.

"But surely since those people all have families of their own they must just constantly be attending weddings?"

Yes, in some countries weddings are what people do on the weekends.

£10,000 fine for just the organisers. So the rest of the attendees who are just as bad walk away scott free? Absolute joke. Fine them all!

@Newusername21

mm yes - even in normal circumstances I'd struggle to get 400 along to a bash of mine LOL.

Maybe instead of fines they should say anyone found guilty of this kind of crime should be put to the BACK of the queue for the vaccine. So don't withhold the vaccine altogether but make sure rule breakers are the last to get it??

It wouldn't work because people who break the lockdown to such as extent aren't very worried about the virus or when they will get the vaccine.

@TheQueef

That also begs the question that as these sects clearly exist why has local authority not made sure the message got to all communities? If there is no tech or are language barriers, misinformation about the vaccine, entire communities able to accidentally break a national emergency law etc then put marshals with leaflets on street corners, something/anything that helps everyone?I

You don't just let them crack on.

I'm not blaming the police for once it's shameful they are having to attend this shite.

The thing is, there are signs up on lamposts, in Hebrew, reminding people to social distance and wear masks... Or at least that what it looks like judging from the symbols - I don't read Hebrew myself. There were vans driving round in the summer, blasting warnings in Yiddish out through huge speakers providing warnings about corona (according to Twitter that is, I don't understand Yiddish myself so can't personally verify). The local council has been working with community outreach, but it's very challenging.

@RedToothBrush not to mention if you didn't toe the line in the community, you could lose your family, your livelihood and your kids. A guy who left the Haredi community gave a talk at my synagogue (he left because he shock horror wanted to study science, get GCSEs and go to university, happily he is reading physics at a red brick university after only getting secular education from the age of 18). Basically his parents barely talk to him, he isn't allowed to visit them at their home and he wasn't invited to any of the weddings of his siblings. He left before he married and had any kids, but i know the community would rally together and pay the legal fees to get custody for the children of any defector to stay within the community and not be exposed to the secular world.

My Dh went to a haredi primary school in stamford hill and only got secular education when he went to secondary school, which is why i know a little about that community. They teach no English or Maths so basically the kids wouldn't be able to survive in the secular world when the vast majority of men don't have basic comprehension skills in English, let alone GCSEs . He says that the reason why they comform and are able to break rules like that en masse is simply because they are so insulated and the price of stepping even a little outside your bubble is so high.

"But if you are part of a community which regards the obligations placed on you by god as superseding all earthly authority, a community which is fairly closed and many members of which live almost entirely apart from the mainstream, accessing no secular news or media, spending time only with other members of the community, living a life centred around religion..."

They knew it was illegal or they wouldn't have all run away when the police arrived, would they?

The 400 people is hard to imagine if you’re from a ‘normal’ 2.4 children family. My dad is one of 14. I have 51 first cousins & all of them have at least 1 child (most have more) if the bride & groom are both from families like mine just their reasonably close relatives easily make up 400 people.

This is ridiculous. Religion shouldn't even come into this what complete bullst! Theres a global pandemic it's called human moral and doing the right thing. It's all around us when something like this happens we should all be working together to protect ourselves and others. They know the difference between right and wrong they just dont give a sht

I probably could but it would mean a lot of advertising for a free party on social media, which defies the point!
Most Chassidic functions are very large. I'm not so surprised by the numbers, probably thousand more would have been invited and turned it down. Stereotypically, most Ultra-Orthodox families are quite large compared to other communities too.

But if you are part of a community which regards the obligations placed on you by god as superseding all earthly authority, a community which is fairly closed and many members of which live almost entirely apart from the mainstream, accessing no secular news or media, spending time only with other members of the community, living a life centred around religion...

Did you not finish that thought because there is no way to finish it? They absolutely knew.

@Shelby1992xx

This is ridiculous. Religion shouldn't even come into this what complete bullst! Theres a global pandemic it's called human moral and doing the right thing. It's all around us when something like this happens we should all be working together to protect ourselves and others. They know the difference between right and wrong they just dont give a sht

People that are that are that religious don’t think that way. On the news last week they were interviewing people asking if they would have the vaccine, one woman said no, she didn’t need it because god would protect her.

surely even Amish are fully appraised of the virus.

From what I've read, yes - though how well and the amount of compliance has varied widely between communities with some being badly affected.

There is some writing that it's largely related from what I've seen to how well the local mainstream health care (which most Amish communities don't tend to use) has established relationships with them. Better connections and trust, the more likely they were to not do high risk activities including church services, particularly with singing, even when legally allowed in their area.

Amish, unlike the Brethrens already mentioned, do tend to be diligent in reading material from sources outside their community as long as they trust it and in some places in the US, medical centres make newletters specifically for the Amish community.

Having worked with Chasidic community for a while (which in my and many areas have posters of their own separate police force for issues), I found that varied widely between communities with some having a lot more behaviour and information control than others. Many have been supportive of efforts to deal with COVID, but there are pockets.

Not an excuse for this behaviour but, as Red said, I can see if those in power within the community said come party, the response would be what time which is an explanation for how we end up with 400 lawbreakers who yeah possibly knew, but as a child I definitely saw laws being broken and covered up for those connected to the power structure.

Of people I know now, no, but I could see some religious groups I grew up near definitely being able to try to pull that. It's difficult to find ways to support people within and those who want out and I agree that the pursuit of those to punish should be on the power structure rather than the easier low hanging fruit that will have far less protection.

onlychildandhamster Different community, but I had similar threats when I was a teenager - that if I'd left they'd take my children as they would 'belonged to the church'. I immigrated and had to get British police involved at once point as I got contacted by a member taking pictures outside my place of work.

It's a religion not a cult
That line can get a little blurry at times and by law to my knowledge there is very little difference.

I really hope that the person who authorised the hire gets a severe fine as he would have known that any get together would break lockdown rules

This is near where I am.

there are signs up on lamposts, in Hebrew, reminding people to social distance and wear masks... Or at least that what it looks like judging from the symbols Yes, that's right. And yes, there were vans driving round in the summer giving warnings in Yiddish. No excuses.

The best bit is the school – 'Oh, we had no idea, we're horrified.' Yeah, sure, you rented out a school hall expecting it to be for three people and a dog

I'm sick of people screaming antisemitism. It's anti-fucking-irresponsible-and-stupidism I think you'll find.

Wow this makes me worry for the internal affairs for that community..

I would be able to summon 400 people if I wanted. But none of them would be willing to do that during these times and risk their lives and their loved ones like that .

It must’ve been some sort of obligation by their leadership which suggests there are more things to worry about if people’s lives could be put at risk with utter carelessness like that..

[quote trulydelicious]@Phoenix21

I find this community fascinating

Leaving fascination aside, I find it loopy that in this day and age grown up people think nothing of not being properly informed of the law knowing that they can break it at any time (specially during a pandemic).

And if they break the law, there should be consequences. No exceptions[/quote]
There are people in all communities in this country who are wilfully ignorant of the lawa, because they don't want to know, regardless of having all the mod cons and tech. If people don't want to know, you can't force them to listen.

After all, Trump still has his devoted followers, no matter how often they've been given the facts.

Especially as the principal had died if Covid... the arrogance is phenomenal...hopefully they will all get fined but I'm not sure money is much of a disincentive to such an uncaring community :( the hospitals round that way are under massive pressure.....

@IntermittentParps a lot of the most vocal critics are Jews, including myself.

www.rationalistjudaism.com/2021/01/the-chassidic-wedding-murders.html

Written by an orthodox rabbi about a Bobov wedding in New york which was much larger. Doubtless that several of their attendees are whizzing back to london now as we speak, bringing back the virus with them.

Yeah, it's Stamford Hill, ultra orthodox community, large families... very simple to gather 400 people for a wedding in that setting.

Awful.
My DCs student house was raided by the police on the same day with the threat of a £10k fine as they'd been reported for "having a party".
There was no party, they are one household of Covid facing student nurses.

onlychildandhamster, yes, I know. I'm just saying there are people shouting about it being antisemitic.

"I'm sick of people screaming antisemitism. It's anti-fucking-irresponsible-and-stupidism I think you'll find."

Hear hear @IntermittentParps, but don't let Stokey Folks hear you say that!

@onlychildandhamster - what an interesting (and terrifying!) article. Interesting reading the comments underneath where people are criticising the author and complaining he hates the chassidic community. Sigh.

Who has been screaming anti-semitism?

That’s a strange position to take