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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Who would even know 400 people willing to break LD law?

419 replies

TheQueef · 22/01/2021 11:30

Just saw it on the news.
Any of you could muster 400 people to break the law?
I could maybe get 20 out of everyone I've ever known, how do you even ask?
It was a school to boot! No teaching but come to school for a secret bash!

So...
YANBU no I couldn't gather a big group of rule breakers.
YABU I could easily get that many, everyone is at it.

OP posts:
Monkeytennis97 · 22/01/2021 16:12

@CallmeAngelina

Maybe they all believed Boris and Gav when they said that "schools are safe."
This.
TableFlowerss · 22/01/2021 16:15

Well this is what’s going to happen if this continues. People won’t care anymore

MuckyPlucky · 22/01/2021 16:16

I’ve heard cultural commentators/social psychologists/sociologists/epidemiologists talking about the difficulties with getting the health advice into many types of communities. This includes gypsy/traveller communities, Roma, orthodox Jewish comms, devout muslim communities etc.

I think part of the blame for that is on the part of the govt comms. They assume they are appealing to a mirror image of themselves (white, educated, English-speaking, watches BBC News, listens to English radio etc). But if you’re part of an ultra-orthodox community which may be predominantly non-english-speaking & doesn’t come into regular contact with people outside you’re cultural group, maybe those messages either aren’t getting through or aren’t seen as applying to them.

I’m not for a minute excusing the crazy illegal party though- that’s bananas.

wanderings · 22/01/2021 16:18

@Monkeytennis97 Smile Nice one. Saint Boris, the patron saint of truth, did indeed tell the nation "SCHOOLS ARE SAFE".

Also, remember that with these "huge illegal gatherings", the only ones we hear about on the news are those which were busted by the dictatorship. I wonder how many others get away with it that we don't hear about? Wink

onlychildandhamster · 22/01/2021 16:29

@IrmaFayLear twitter.com/AbbyChavaStein/status/1351599207086436352

DId you see the twitter video. This is in New York during a pandemic. Some attendees are defintely from london as we have a bobov community here. This is legit scary.

IntermittentParps · 22/01/2021 16:30

MuckyPlucky, did you not read the posts about the posters in Hebrew and vans with Yiddish messages?

NeckOfTheWoods, oh God, Stokey Folks... Grin

onlychildandhamster · 22/01/2021 16:34

@IrmaFayLear Interesting article by same author

www.rationalistjudaism.com/2021/01/so-why-do-chassidim-disregard-covid.html

Covid is a contagion. Aside from vaccines, which only recently arrived and are a whole separate discussion, the main way to fight it is to avoid large indoor gatherings. Now, large indoor gatherings are fundamental to charedi and especially chassidic communities to a degree that the rest of us cannot even begin to grasp. The yeshivos and the shuls are the primary focus of people's lives, and keep them in the safety of religious frameworks and away from the threats of internet and so on. Enormous weddings are a modern phenomenon, but they have taken on tremendous importance in chassidic communities. (And in a community where people have large families in crowded apartments without Netflix, keeping children in cheder and yeshiva is not just an educational priority, it's what stands in the way of insanity!)

So the strategies for fighting Covid would exact an enormous toll on the charedi way of life. And if there's one thing that charedim are good at - much better than Modern Orthodox and Dati-Leumi Jews - it's identifying threats to their way of life. To put it another way, someone reported the following statement by a charedi person: "If we need to stop being Chareidim to beat Corona, what are we fighting the disease for?" No, fighting Covid doesn't really force them to stop being charedi, but it causes enough of a challenge that it's understandable that they see it that way.

But there's more. For charedim in general and chassidim in particular, identifying and fighting against threats to their way of life forms a major part of their identity. As I described in my monographs on the Novelty of Orthodoxy and the Making Of Charedim, reacting against the modern world is the driving force in their society. They'll do it even when there is no particular innate reason, because of the benefits that Fighting In The Resistance brings to reinforcing their identity. As a charedi leader in Israel once said, "If the government tells us to learn Bava Kama, we'll learn Bava Metzia!"
And so when a pandemic hits, the choices facing chassidim are as follows. They can cause tremendous harm to their way of life. Or, they can once again be heroes who are fighting against the goyim that are trying (for whatever reason) to cause tremendous harm to Yiddishkeit. It's a no-brainer.

What about the sickness and death that they suffer as a result - to a far greater degree than non-charedim? Well, they see that as an unfortunate but worthwhile price to pay, just as every society is willing to sacrifice lives for its greater values, whether wars or fast transportation. Besides, while attending funerals isn't fun, it gives an opportunity to cry about Divine punishments for bittul Torah and pritzus and Hashem's inscrutable ways, all of which further strengthen their identity. Getting into a fight with non-charedim and non-Jews about what they are doing further feeds in to their life's meaning. And they certainly don't care about the harm that they cause beyond their community.

That's why even something as simple and seemingly religiously harmless as wearing masks is a problem for many (though certainly not all) chassidim. There's a War to Save Yiddishkeit. You don't concede anything to the other side. You davka maintain your way of life in every way against attempts to change it.

So, what can be done about such a situation? Unfortunately, just like with the much more serious problem of charedim avoiding secular education and joining the professional workforce, not much. Dramatic and enforced legislation is very difficult to pull off when dealing with hundreds of thousands of people. And since they are a large voter bloc with simple demands, there's a big incentive for politicians to play along (which is why Bibi always wants charedim in his coalition).

LakieLady · 22/01/2021 16:37

@CallmeAngelina

Maybe they all believed Boris and Gav when they said that "schools are safe."
This made me lol!

The only way I could get that many people would be by sending out an "all staff" email invite at work and including a free bar.

Even then it would require a fairly high rate of acceptance, there are only 1,000 staff.

FourDecades · 22/01/2021 16:39

@XelaM

My ex-husband's family have been Covid-deniers and had large gatherings for New Years Eve (very big extended family albeit less than 400 people). They all ended up catching Covid and passing it to each other (even to a baby!). Some family members became very ill and one was very close to death, hospitalised and on oxygen. The member of the family who nearly died was only 40 and had no underlying conditions.

Covid is real and people need to take it seriously.

What is their opinion now about Covid?
pelosi · 22/01/2021 16:40

@DeRigueurMortis

And sorry just to add as I cross posted with RTB there is absolutely very troubling evidence that the leadership of some communities are encouraging these behaviours and it's they who should be called to account.

As RTB rightly points out, the ability of some people (typically women) within these communities to "defy" the leadership or even have access to information outside it is very minimal indeed.

I agree @DeRigueurMortis. It's a community wedding, the pressure to attend must have been immense.
IrmaFayLear · 22/01/2021 16:43

Interesting perspective, onlychildandhamster.

I saw that the orthodox community in NY were getting vaccinated, though, as there was some scandal about appropriating supplies.

Londonmummy66 · 22/01/2021 16:47

The article posted by @onlychildandhamster about the NY wedding suggested that the only way to stop this type of gathering is "by the money". Assuming that is also the case here then fining every adult present would cost the community upwards of £10,000 - assuming that the average attendee was a family of 8. Which might not bother them. However, with the increase in fines to £800 they might now start thinking. Personally I think that the venues ought to be fined an amount double the hire fee and the organisers (where not the venue) the organisation fee plus £10,000.

IrmaFayLear · 22/01/2021 16:50

Exactly. As a pp mentioned, there will have been caterers, too.

Miljea · 22/01/2021 17:03

the school concerned

State funding it? Not so great.

Thank you onlychildandhamster for your input.

It's fascinating to me, 'closed' communities in open societies in 2021.

onlychildandhamster · 22/01/2021 17:03

@IrmaFayLear they are not against stuff like vaccinations or genetic tests (which are quite important as Ashkenazi Jews can be carriers for genetic diseases like Tay Sachs). . But they are against stuff that they believe makes it difficult for them to be with their community

Miljea · 22/01/2021 17:04

@IrmaFayLear

Exactly. As a pp mentioned, there will have been caterers, too.
But seeing as it appears they used the school's caterers, and the school is a Charedi one, I expect the catering was kosher and provided by Charedi staff.
Xenia · 22/01/2021 17:06

I am against all mandatory CV19 measures although I follow them.
If you believe in eternal life and that life here is just a tiny bit of your life then it is a legitimate position to take that you will not give up your religion and customs. Also some of these communities had so much CV19 in March many are immune anyway and/or those who got it badly died then anyway. We are all going to die at some point - it is how we live our life now that matters. Perhaps better dead than not free surely?

It is currently against the law and had been for over a month to get married in the UK including in a church and even if you don't have a single guest (unless you are dying). The banning of Catholic marriages has not happened like that in the UK since the 1500s and is a huge breach of rights.

Gwenhwyfar · 22/01/2021 17:09

"The banning of Catholic marriages has not happened like that in the UK since the 1500s and is a huge breach of rights."

It's not a ban on Catholic marriages though, it's a ban on weddings in general.

onlychildandhamster · 22/01/2021 17:09

@Miljea This was voluntary aided, which means that the government think they teach some secular subjects as religious education must be paid for privately. My Dh's school didn't even qualify for government funding when he went there . He said that they drew hats on the illustrations of men in picture books. Science was playing one of those volcano kits. I once saw his workbooks from primary school when clearing out the loft at MIL's house--- no english, all yiddish. He says years later, he saw one of his ex classmates working for a kosher restaurant locally as most of them went to the yeshiva not the mainstream jewish secondary school DH chose to attend (where almost everyone goes to university). The girls are forced to do a levels in half the time so that they can get married at 18.

IF the kids in the community had the option to do GCSEs, a levels and go to university, it wouldn't be this way.

Yohoheaveho · 22/01/2021 17:11

So yes, it is possible that many of them are not really aware of the situation with respect to rules
they blocked out all the windows so clearly knew they were doing something they shouldnt oughta!

nanbread · 22/01/2021 17:11

I don't think I could muster 400 people full stop.

I sometimes think of I had a mate who invited me for a sneaky drink, would I say yes.

I'd be tempted, but probably wouldn't - don't think any of my friends would ask anyway!

Xenia · 22/01/2021 17:12

*Gwen" yes but it affects Catholic as much as other civil marriages but not hindu and muslim and weirdly our law does not require those to have a civil marriage at the same time whereas Christian and I believe Jewish too marriage are required by English law to have a civil as well as a religious ceremony under English law.

if you can attend a distanced church service (as you can) then I don't see why you cannot marry having fewer people than at a Sunday service and having no party after. It is very unfair (we have a family church wedding with 13 guests only in March or had until January lockdown).

Gwenhwyfar · 22/01/2021 17:12

"But if you’re part of an ultra-orthodox community which may be predominantly non-english-speaking & doesn’t come into regular contact with people outside you’re cultural group, maybe those messages either aren’t getting through or aren’t seen as applying to them."

Why would it not apply to them?
I can sort of see why they might think HIV or something doesn't apply to them, but not a virus. And why would they think everyone else has to stay home, but them?
Also, a pp mentioned plenty of signs and announcements in Hebrew and Yiddish in the local area.

DuzzyFuck · 22/01/2021 17:13

I reckon I could come up with about 8 people who would willingly meet up indoors at the moment and because of that they'd be the 8 I'd least like to mix with Hmm

NeckOfTheWoods · 22/01/2021 17:17

@Miljea, here's some previous news about the same school to give you an idea of education there:

www.thejc.com/education/education-news/chasidic-girls-school-yesodey-hatorah-branded-inadequate-in-scathing-ofsted-report-1.466103