Who would even know 400 people willing to break LD law?

[TheQueef]

Just saw it on the news.
Any of you could muster 400 people to break the law?
I could maybe get 20 out of everyone I've ever known, how do you even ask?
It was a school to boot! No teaching but come to school for a secret bash!

So...
YANBU no I couldn't gather a big group of rule breakers.
YABU I could easily get that many, everyone is at it.

[itsallpointless]

@ancientgran that all sounds fascinating! I come from the East End, grew up (and are friends with) many of the communities you mention. My Mum would make sauerkraut and pickled herrings (a link to her heritage) I too love observing the differences in culture, and what brings them together the most (apart from religion) is food! From beigels (no not bagels) to curry goat, and lots in between, the authenticity of food being around those local communities is what draws me in..

[ancientgran]

It's funny that I was shocked but not surprised, decided I wouldn't be going back for some time, which is sad, as I do love the Jewish bakeries/delis

When I was a child in the 50s I lived nextdoor to a Jewish deli, it was so interesting and smelt so amazing in 1950s England. It also seemed terribly modern compared to the English shops locally, very light and bright with some self service. I had a Polish friend at school and her mother ran a Polish deli which was also amazing. She spoke no English so I assumed most of her customers must have been Polish but she was always very smiley and welcoming.
We were part of the Irish wave of immigration, then came a big Jamaican community followed but Indians and Pakistanis. The Indian weddings in the Gurdwara just up the road were a revelation in 1950s England, the colours, the horses, the smells. We'd sit on a wall and watch it all. In turn the local Indian community were fascinated by our First Holy Communion parades and I remember one man who was shocked and asked my dad if they were really marrying off all these little children.

Other people's cultures are fascinating.

[BikeRunSki]

It had taken me all day to get through this thread.
I have learnt a huge amount, found the discussion very thought provoking. Thank you @onlychildandhamster, and other posters with knowledge and understanding of this community and faith for sharing your insights.

[ShotgunShack]

I have lurked and learned a lot too on this thread. Thank you to posters who have shared their knowledge and those who have asked questions. Fascinating.

This issues facing very private and closed communities, and those who live alongside them, when something like a viral pandemic occurs are clearly very complex indeed.

It makes me realize how much power some community leaders have when religious and/or cultural values are tightly managed by a strict hierarchy. I absolutely think this gathering was was wrong and dangerous. But the weight of judgement must be with the few in positions of influence rather than many of the community members I feel. And tackling that within the law (and to have a productive outcome), brings a whole raft of other challenges.

[itsallpointless]

@onlychildandhamster I can imagine GG being stricter to be honest. Sanitising was in limited (if not any) supply too. We went to Grodzinski (love love the doughnuts) but they were all on display, not covered, just like the all the loaves of bread/rolls etc. People were picking loaves up, and putting them back, not using gloves/bags either, hence I didn't buy any, only bought what was wrapped.

It's funny that I was shocked but not surprised, decided I wouldn't be going back for some time, which is sad, as I do love the Jewish bakeries/delis😋

[TheQueef]

Some really interesting and educational posts on this thread.
Thank you, I'm learning.

[onlychildandhamster]

@trulyreligious I think your reaction is natural given that it's an extreme group of people. However I guess, as no government has been able to solve the problems for years. In new York they have even formed their own theocracy village, Kiryas Yoel.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryas_Joel,_New_York

[Ginfordinner]

[quote trulydelicious]@onlychildandhamster

Your insight is very detailed and interesting to read[/quote]
I agree. I appreciate your posts @onlychildandhamster and other posters of the Jewish faith, for patiently explaining without showing irritation at our my stupid questions.

[trulydelicious]

@onlychildandhamster

Your insight is very detailed and interesting to read

[trulydelicious]

@onlychildandhamster

ironically your views on benefits are quite similar to a lot of ultra orthodox Jews

It may well be the case, that's why I try to emphasize that my views are not to criticize any community in particular

A government budget is not a household budget, as covid has shown, the government can print money and pay 80% of the salaries of millions for a year, including middle class people

Printing money usually causes inflation - which is another form of tax (most people are impoverished as a result). Hence my point that 'benefits' is not free money, someone always pays

after all those kids are paying my pension in later life

Mmm, some of them will, but a lot of them will end up on the benefits cycle themselves, so will not be paying for anyone's pension

My arguments are a bit extreme, I know, but what I want to illustrate is that money handed out always ends up coming out of someone's pocket, and we should all be aware of this.

[onlychildandhamster]

@itsallpointless its very different to Golders Green then. At the start of the pandemic, I went to kosher kingdom to do Passover shopping and it was so strict- we even had to wear little plastic gloves. And Golders Green does have a haredi population -its known as a religious neighborhood.

[Xenia]

Most people in the UK support the mandatory CV19 rules and the courts held in December that they were not unlawful so there is not much point in those of us against them putting the contrary view. The Israel chart of the very good effect of the Pfizer vaccine probably means things can be eased off.

[itsallpointless]

I went to Stamford Hill in December when it was Hanukkah. The shops (small independent Jewish ones) were full, and very little mask wearing. I commented to my friend how many (Orthodox Jews) were not observing the rules (masks/distancing) but as we know of this community, it wasn't surprising to us.

They certainly did know there's a pandemic, of that there's no doubt, however insular they may be.

[onlychildandhamster]

• agree with increased spending on the children of large impoverished families;

[onlychildandhamster]

@trulydelicious ironically your views on benefits are quite similar to a lot of ultra orthodox Jews. The ones who do pay taxes would love to not pay taxes to pay for schools they don't use and they can spend that money on charity for their own community -over 90% of Jews contribute a fixed amount to charity every year and this is particularly pronounced in the orthodox. Most orthodox Jews vote tory. For the Haredim, they have their own private schools, their own ambulance service, their own lending societies that give out interest free loans which they fund with private money. The Haredim fitted in well in canvey island which is a tory stronghold with many Brexit voters.

And in Israel, the haredim vote for a party that goes into coalition with Bibi who is right wing and generally slashes benefits and welfare for ordinary people.in the USA, the haredim vote republican. It is the reform/secular Jews who vote for left wing governments in UK or, US even though it own birth rate is 1.9. I might have an only child but I would disagree with increased spending on the children of large impoverished families; after all those kids are paying my pension in later life and I want them to have the best chances rather than be stuck in minimum wage jobs cos they were born in the wrong family.

[onlychildandhamster]

@trulydelicious. I didn't say it, doctors did. Its a guardian article..surely we should take that into account.

Well, we aren't Israel so the percentage of people with 9 children is miniscule and doesn't account for a numerically significant percentage of the budget. And also the birth rate is less than replacement level in the UK. Israel's high birth rate means that it's probably the only OECD country not worried about pension funds. A government budget is not a household budget, as covid has shown, the government can print money and pay 80% of the salaries of millions for a year, including middle class people. There are people out there buying property with government bounce back loans. Also the haredi would have claimed benefits whether they had 0,1 or 9 children (there are haredim.who suffer from infertility and we have child benefit cap in this country) as they are eligible based on their high rate of non standard employment. Its the work pattern you should be attacking here, not the number of children. The number of children might justify the means for them but it isn't the reason why they are eligible for benefits.


Also while people in Israel may not particularly like taxpayer money going to support people who don't work, the fact that there is a war there means that there are political factors at play and society is divided and polarized. A percentage of the population want the Jewish birth rate to be higher than the Arab birth rate...even if the excess births are mainly haredim. In the settlements, the average is 12 children as they are basically 'competing' in the birth olympics with the Palestinians in the area.

[MrsFezziwig]

the sooner we remove these restrictions on people's religious and other freedoms the better.

@Xenia why should other people’s religious freedoms be allowed to impact negatively on the rest of society?

[trulydelicious]

@onlychildandhamster

Rather than blame the public, we should focus on how the timing and communication of restrictions have contributed to the current situation

With due respect, but I think your last post is a bit brazen on a thread discussing a party of 400 150 people?

You may get flamed

[trulydelicious]

And in relation to benefits, they should really be a safety net that anyone who is struggling should be able to access (lawfully obviously)

But often I see that they are discussed lightly and perceived as if they were a pot of unlimited money magically popping up out of the blue.

In order for someone to receive X amount in benefits, that amount has to be (literally) taken from someone else.

Let's assume my sibling has decided to have only one child as she can't afford a second. Wouldn't it be fairer that I handed over what I get deducted in tax directly to my sister rather than having to subsidise someone who has decided to have 9 children for whatever reason? (again, I don't want to single out the Haredi community here, I'm speaking in general)

Sometimes people have to stop and think a bit more rigorously and realistically about these matters IMO.

[onlychildandhamster]

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/23/covid-dont-blame-public-overloaded-hospitals-icu-medics-tell-nhs-staff?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1611419108


Social and conventional media is awash with comments from exhausted and understandably frustrated fellow healthcare workers who suggest individuals may have ‘blood on their hands’ or need to ‘f**k off’.” While such sentiments are easy to understand, given the huge pressure staff are under, it is unfair to “blame breaches of lockdown rules for the spike in hospitalisations and deaths” seen in the ongoing second wave, they say.

Blaming defiance of lockdown rules also overlooks the key socio-economic factors behind Britain’s pandemic, such as deprivation, poor housing and ethnicity, the medics add.

Rather than blame the public, we should focus on how the timing and communication of restrictions have contributed to the current situation, as well as an undeveloped test and trace system,” he said.

“We are also dealing with a variant that makes the virus more transmissible, which is especially dangerous for those living in areas of social deprivation where the infection spreads more easily. Fundamentally, however, it is chronic underfunding and lack of resources in the NHS that are driving staff to breaking point – not the public, who are doing everything they can to prevent our beloved health service from going under.”

Advertisement
This weekend, the government launched a hard-hitting new multimedia advertising campaign to try to persuade the public to abide by the lockdown in order to help beleaguered NHS staff. It seeks to prick people’s consciences by asking: “Can you look them in the eyes and tell them you’re helping by staying at home?”

[trulydelicious]

@CruCru

if prosecuting three organisers leads to 50 ordinary people getting attacked

I don't think anyone will be attacked.

What should happen is, all those who organise parties should be prosecuted (this is not the only party that took place recently - someone posted a link to another one up thread). The leaders of this community should be amongst a larger group who would be fined/taken to court etc. So it would be inequivocal that the issue is not discrimination against this group and that the law applies to everyone equally.

As I say, I have nothing against this community and in my opinion (and I know this is very personal) religion in general is beneficial. I would much prefer someone following a religious leader who is a positive influence than blindly following an instagrammer, football player or a political leader and being taken advantage of. Obviously as long as it doesn't lead to radicalisation, law breaking, oppression, etc

[LindaEllen]

I said that to DP! We don't even know 400 people, let alone 400 people willing to break the law so badly in a way that could impact the safety of everyone at the event - not to mention their contacts afterwards.

[onlychildandhamster]

@Zerrin13 Only 10% of Israeli Jews are Haredi so actually they would stick out more there than here. As most Israeli Jews are not religious in the slightest- they are israeli jews who have never been to a synagogue before. they dislike secular Jews more than non Jews and they despise reform Jews like myself. I mean, when the Israeli police was trying to arrest some of them for breaking covid regulations, some of the boys actually screamed Nazi.

UK Jews are much more religious than Israeli Jews- majority of UK belong to an orthodox synagogue (even though there is a wide spectrum of observance and most 'orthodox' Jews lean towards modern orthodox/light touch observance). I think this is natural - in the UK, you are a minority so a way to identify with your heritage is to be religious. But when you live in Israel, you don't feel that need to be religious to identify with your heritage as most people are Jewish anyway.

Benefits to staying in the Uk- i think family would play a big part. This is a very family centric community. Unless they can all move to Israel, they would miss their parents, brothers and sisters.. Also Israel is really expensive, the property in central israel- tel aviv, jerusalem is more expensive than in london, the food costs are basically london kosher food prices (which is 3-4 X normal food, but in london you can buy basics in Aldi or Lidl and buy the cheeses/processed foods in the kosher supermarket). Wages are lower in Israel which is applicable as the women work. However, daycare is more reasonably priced in Israel. And of course there is always the chance the governmenet would come to the sense and draft the ultra orthodox into the military which most would never abide by, while in the UK, there is no threat of that.

Also many UK Jews including Haredim are not great at Ivrit. my SIL went to a haredi primary school and a mainstream modern orthodox jewish school and her Ivrit was very much beginners level when she moved to Israel. She had to find English speaking jobs which is easier for her than for a Haredi lady as she has a degree from a really good university in London.

[drspouse]

Some Orthodox sects don't believe that Israel is the promised land.

[Zerrin13]

Although this is breaking current laws, maybe as they arnt mixing with others outside of their community they feel they won't be spreading the virus to the rest of us? Maybe they think its their choice to risk infecting each other? I'm sure if they were very seriously ill they would need the services of intensive care. I'm sure they don't run and fund their own hospitals supplying patients with high tech life saving treatments for Corona virus.
I'm baffled as to why these ulta orthodox sects(and they are sects, I dont care what anyone says) don't feel more comfortable in their motherland? Surely they wouldn't have to isolate themselves from all of us non Jews? There must be many benefits to being here for them.