Who would even know 400 people willing to break LD law?

[TheQueef]

Just saw it on the news.
Any of you could muster 400 people to break the law?
I could maybe get 20 out of everyone I've ever known, how do you even ask?
It was a school to boot! No teaching but come to school for a secret bash!

So...
YANBU no I couldn't gather a big group of rule breakers.
YABU I could easily get that many, everyone is at it.

[ancientgran]

It isn't anti semitic to expect people to follow the law, it is anything but.

[CruCru]

No it isn’t. However, if prosecuting three organisers leads to 50 ordinary people getting attacked or having dog shit shoved through their letterboxes, that isn’t a good result. As it is, the Jewish museum in Camden has an armed policeman outside at all times.

[ancientgran]

So we let people break the law? That can't be the answer. How about people just obey the law?

[onlychildandhamster]

@trulydelicious their argument would be what if there is another holocaust and 66% of the Jewish population dies. That's what happened in the holocaust. Jews have been slaughtered every century so it is a valid concern. Its why even though I am a reform convert and I am not recognized as Jewish by the orthodox rabbinate in Israel, I have the right to make Aliyah as I would have been in the concentration camps if I was in Europe in 1940.

Yes the arguments for fiscal prudence are valid in Israel and outside but at the same time,these are people who grew up listening to how their entire families were slaughtered. The main way of controlling family size are 2 things - women's careers and school fees. When the fees get very high as they are in the US, they are a big deterrent for the large families. If women are invested in their careers and not just as a means of supporting their husbands through kollel, they are reluctant to take maternity leave 10 times over.

[Yohoheaveho]

Wrong again
good! glad I was wrong on that one, just it was all blokes in the link I looked at earlier

[feelingverylazytoday]

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Surely if you really wanted to work you wouldn't make choices which made it impossible

A very valid point, but then the same principle applies to so many others
Think for the moment of the outrage which meets any remark that non-faith people on benefits should perhaps limit their families ... instantly the cries start of "you're judging!!", "you don't understand anything !!", "you're a privileged twat" and so on

It's not that I don't get the principles here - I just wonder why they're tolerated when applied to some and not others

I've only come across that reaction on this board, tbh. Most people I know agree with the benefit cap.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

Most people I know agree with the benefit cap

Same here, feeling, but I guess we all tend to gravitate to like minded people, and one of the charms of MN is that offers access to so many different views

We won't always agree with them of course, but along the way we get to learn a lot

[Xenia]

We change the law. We have had these restrictions for far too ong. Those who want to shelter and shield and not do stuff can choose that route. others can choose to mix more. We will have this thing with us for years and years despite the vaccine and will need to live with it and yet be free to make our own choices, not bossed around by a nanny state.

[ancientgran]

You can vote for a new govt in 4 years. For the moment we have Boris (Lord have mercy on us) and we have covid so for now people need to obey the law, all the laws, it isn't a pick and mix of choose the laws you like.

[Ginfordinner]

@Xenia you have repeatedly stated on this thread that you are against all covid 19 restrictions. I am asking yet again, politely, why? And what measures could we do instead to make sure the NHS isn't overwhelmed?

Like you, I am finding lockdown restrictive, and hate what it is doing to the economy as all of us are, but every time we go into lockdown cases go down. Until we can get most of the population vaccinated I don't have the answer. Do you?

[lalafafa]

Surely if the men don’t work and they’re not on job seekers, and CB is limited their benefits wouldn’t add up to much?

[Xenia]

I think more damage is done having the mandatory measures in place than not having them in place. People could still choose to be careful if they wanted to. I am happy to die at home with no NHS if needs be.

[ImsorryWilson]

“I am happy to die at home with no NHS if needs be”

But are you happy for me to? I’m not.

[Tehmina23]

@Xenia I work in a hospital & believe me I am very happy that lockdown measures are in place!!

As it is we have six Covid wards, 4 patients on my ward plus 2 staff somehow contracted Covid despite all ppe in place (as provided by the government) in the last few days, when I left work yesterday I saw 8 full ambulances outside ED, the Ventilators in ICU & Theatres are all in use.

It would be a thousand times worse without lockdown,..

I mean I do get very depressed during lockdown on my days off as I live alone, but I know it's for the best so I have to live with it!

[Chargebeam]

Xenia has made her feelings on the NHS clear in the past. Money before lives.

[Darbs76]

Nope but in some communities you don’t even know half the people who show up at your wedding!

[ancientgran]

@Xenia

I think more damage is done having the mandatory measures in place than not having them in place. People could still choose to be careful if they wanted to. I am happy to die at home with no NHS if needs be.

My late MIL used to say she'd die at home, didn't want to go to hospital. You've never heard anyone moan more than she did when waiting for an ambulance to get her there. Things sometimes look a bit different when you get up close.

[Ginfordinner]

Thank you for the job you do @Tehmina23

Lockdown is shit, but the alternative is worse, and anyone who believes otherwise is an idiot.

[CrocodilesCry]

You might say now while you're well and younger that you're happy to die at home but believe me, you won't feel that way when the time comes.

[Zerrin13]

Although this is breaking current laws, maybe as they arnt mixing with others outside of their community they feel they won't be spreading the virus to the rest of us? Maybe they think its their choice to risk infecting each other? I'm sure if they were very seriously ill they would need the services of intensive care. I'm sure they don't run and fund their own hospitals supplying patients with high tech life saving treatments for Corona virus.
I'm baffled as to why these ulta orthodox sects(and they are sects, I dont care what anyone says) don't feel more comfortable in their motherland? Surely they wouldn't have to isolate themselves from all of us non Jews? There must be many benefits to being here for them.

[drspouse]

Some Orthodox sects don't believe that Israel is the promised land.

[onlychildandhamster]

@Zerrin13 Only 10% of Israeli Jews are Haredi so actually they would stick out more there than here. As most Israeli Jews are not religious in the slightest- they are israeli jews who have never been to a synagogue before. they dislike secular Jews more than non Jews and they despise reform Jews like myself. I mean, when the Israeli police was trying to arrest some of them for breaking covid regulations, some of the boys actually screamed Nazi.

UK Jews are much more religious than Israeli Jews- majority of UK belong to an orthodox synagogue (even though there is a wide spectrum of observance and most 'orthodox' Jews lean towards modern orthodox/light touch observance). I think this is natural - in the UK, you are a minority so a way to identify with your heritage is to be religious. But when you live in Israel, you don't feel that need to be religious to identify with your heritage as most people are Jewish anyway.

Benefits to staying in the Uk- i think family would play a big part. This is a very family centric community. Unless they can all move to Israel, they would miss their parents, brothers and sisters.. Also Israel is really expensive, the property in central israel- tel aviv, jerusalem is more expensive than in london, the food costs are basically london kosher food prices (which is 3-4 X normal food, but in london you can buy basics in Aldi or Lidl and buy the cheeses/processed foods in the kosher supermarket). Wages are lower in Israel which is applicable as the women work. However, daycare is more reasonably priced in Israel. And of course there is always the chance the governmenet would come to the sense and draft the ultra orthodox into the military which most would never abide by, while in the UK, there is no threat of that.

Also many UK Jews including Haredim are not great at Ivrit. my SIL went to a haredi primary school and a mainstream modern orthodox jewish school and her Ivrit was very much beginners level when she moved to Israel. She had to find English speaking jobs which is easier for her than for a Haredi lady as she has a degree from a really good university in London.

[LindaEllen]

I said that to DP! We don't even know 400 people, let alone 400 people willing to break the law so badly in a way that could impact the safety of everyone at the event - not to mention their contacts afterwards.

[trulydelicious]

@CruCru

if prosecuting three organisers leads to 50 ordinary people getting attacked

I don't think anyone will be attacked.

What should happen is, all those who organise parties should be prosecuted (this is not the only party that took place recently - someone posted a link to another one up thread). The leaders of this community should be amongst a larger group who would be fined/taken to court etc. So it would be inequivocal that the issue is not discrimination against this group and that the law applies to everyone equally.

As I say, I have nothing against this community and in my opinion (and I know this is very personal) religion in general is beneficial. I would much prefer someone following a religious leader who is a positive influence than blindly following an instagrammer, football player or a political leader and being taken advantage of. Obviously as long as it doesn't lead to radicalisation, law breaking, oppression, etc

[onlychildandhamster]

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/23/covid-dont-blame-public-overloaded-hospitals-icu-medics-tell-nhs-staff?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1611419108


Social and conventional media is awash with comments from exhausted and understandably frustrated fellow healthcare workers who suggest individuals may have ‘blood on their hands’ or need to ‘f**k off’.” While such sentiments are easy to understand, given the huge pressure staff are under, it is unfair to “blame breaches of lockdown rules for the spike in hospitalisations and deaths” seen in the ongoing second wave, they say.

Blaming defiance of lockdown rules also overlooks the key socio-economic factors behind Britain’s pandemic, such as deprivation, poor housing and ethnicity, the medics add.

Rather than blame the public, we should focus on how the timing and communication of restrictions have contributed to the current situation, as well as an undeveloped test and trace system,” he said.

“We are also dealing with a variant that makes the virus more transmissible, which is especially dangerous for those living in areas of social deprivation where the infection spreads more easily. Fundamentally, however, it is chronic underfunding and lack of resources in the NHS that are driving staff to breaking point – not the public, who are doing everything they can to prevent our beloved health service from going under.”

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