Who would even know 400 people willing to break LD law?

[TheQueef]

Just saw it on the news.
Any of you could muster 400 people to break the law?
I could maybe get 20 out of everyone I've ever known, how do you even ask?
It was a school to boot! No teaching but come to school for a secret bash!

So...
YANBU no I couldn't gather a big group of rule breakers.
YABU I could easily get that many, everyone is at it.

I was thinking the same. I might (just?) be able to gather 400 people to my wedding, but at the moment, I would struggle to get even my close family to attend.
Think about it; if weddings were legal now and I was invited to one, it would have to be a pretty close friend or family member for me to want to go. I wouldn't be willing to put my health on the line for my husband's colleague's son or whatever. It shows how separate some of these communities are, that 400 people from one community think it's ok. The health messaging is clearly not reaching them.

RedToothBrush good post.

mm yes - even in normal circumstances I'd struggle to get 400 along to a bash of mine LOL.

Maybe instead of fines they should say anyone found guilty of this kind of crime should be put to the BACK of the queue for the vaccine. So don't withhold the vaccine altogether but make sure rule breakers are the last to get it??

@Pimlicojo

Redtoothbrush you are right of course. I'm just angry and emotional about this so probably not rational.

But everyone has a responsibility to uphold the law. These people are selfish fuckers. Their desire to do what they want does not trump others. Ignorance is no excuse.

I would argue that if asked to do something outside the law (excepting murder and rape as these are also religiously taught), a good lawyer could raise a pretty good defence involving being the victim of coercive control if they had a client in a low ranked position in one of these communities who was inclined to take such a route.

Ignorance isn't an excuse to the law. It may however be a bloody good defence which could result either in not guilty or a lesser sentence in certain circumstances.

Put blame where it lies. Firmly in the hands of those in positions of power in this community.

@Newusername21

I could be wrong but I highly doubt that this community will encourage taking the vaccine.

In fact, I’d assume that they generally don’t vaccinate.

I would also add that few would EVER use such an excuse precisely because of how they are wed to their religious way of life. And they would defer to their community leaders if the punishment were a fine - and be bailed out by the community in such cases. It does not solve the problem though. You still may have leaders willing to engage and involve the community in risky behaviour for religious reasons or for the perservation of their own power.

That just highlights the vulnerability of some members of such communities though. They don't have full automy and freedom to make decisions in the way we understand. They have been conditioned since birth to be passive and to obey rather than to exercise their own opinions.

Yes I agree re coercive control.

As some said above, those who defect can lose absolutely everything. Home, jobs, children, then struggle to find their feet in mainstream life.

phoenix - I don't think you assumption is right - most charedi leaders are not just encouraging vaccinations but ordering followers to have them.

A bit of a snapshot of what life is like for some in Stamford Hill. Article from March last year:

www.hackneygazette.co.uk/news/education/bnois-jerusalem-fails-ofsted-inspection-3652568

^Pupils at a failing Stamford Hill school are never entered for GCSEs, because its leaders “cannot censor the exam papers”.

Instead girls at the independent Jewish school, Bnois Jerusalem, in Amhurst Park, take internal school examinations using past-paper questions, an Ofsted report that was published this week revealed, which rated it as inadequate across the board.

School leavers are given certificates which have 'no value outside of the community', leaving them ill-equipped to pursue further study or employment.

'Pupils do not take any qualifications at the end of key stage 4. This is because leaders would have to contravene the examination regulations in order to censor the examination papers,' pointed out inspector Janet Hallett in her report.^

Protests took place outside the school in Amhurst Park, that teaches 840 girls aged from two to 16, when Ofsted inspectors visited in December. Parents accused inspectors of an 'inquisition', and banned them from speaking to their children. The school teaches religious creationism in geography and science rather than scientific theories about the origins of life, and text, photographs and illustrations in geography text books are redacted.

Fiction books are also censored, and no English language books are stocked in its library, which only has books in Yiddish.

'For older pupils, wider reading is limited,' states the Ofsted report. 'Pupils' class reading books are selected from a narrow genre of fiction, such as 'Carrie's War' by Nina Bawden. Even within that narrow genre, pupils' fiction books are censored and redacted.'

Children in reception aren't taught phonics, and the lack of English books hinders their chance to master the language.

'Pupils' speaking skills are weak,' noted the inspectors. 'Often, pupils only give one-word answers in class and speak quietly so as not to be heard. This reflects pupils' lack of confidence with English language.'

@RedToothBrush

And they would defer to their community leaders if the punishment were a fine - and be bailed out by the community in such cases

That's why.

Apply the fines (irrespective of who ends up paying) in order to send the inequivocal message that no one is above the law and that there will be consequences for everyone that breaks it

I do not condone the behaviour. Many of the people there would have known it was wrong. However, the lack of empathy and understanding from some people on here is unpleasant. Within that group of 400, there will be a significant number of predominantly women and children who have been subjected to coercive control, brainwashing and will be completely and utterly indoctrinated. The community leaders have a lot to answer for.
You can pretend there aren’t communities like this is modern Britain if it makes you feel better but it’s untrue. Some people are completely shut off from the modern and secular community. You can’t debate with people who refuse to acknowledge facts.

Can you imagine the AIBU?

“We’re getting married on the 14th, it’s a big wedding, we’re having 400 people. We’re undecided on how to have a wedding list because we could quite conceivably end up with 50 toasters. AIBU to ask for money instead?”

And can you imagine the receiving line having to greet 400 people? Most of whom you’ve probably never seen before and will never see again...?

@RedToothBrush

That just highlights the vulnerability of some members of such communities though

I'm confused, why do you keep going on about the vulnerability of women in this community, etc?

Shouldn't this thread be about the fact that they broke the law and put everyone at risk?

Maybe instead of fines they should say anyone found guilty of this kind of crime should be put to the BACK of the queue for the vaccine. So don't withhold the vaccine altogether but make sure rule breakers are the last to get it??

It wouldn't work in this case because life, death etc is in the hands of you-know-who.

@samG76

phoenix - I don't think you assumption is right - most charedi leaders are not just encouraging vaccinations but ordering followers to have them.

Ohhh do you have a link?

That’s good to know that the community at large isn’t completely ignoring Covid at least.

@Pimlicojo it's a religion not a cult

[quote trulydelicious]@RedToothBrush

And they would defer to their community leaders if the punishment were a fine - and be bailed out by the community in such cases

That's why.

Apply the fines (irrespective of who ends up paying) in order to send the inequivocal message that no one is above the law and that there will be consequences for everyone that breaks it[/quote]
I doubt it would solve the problem either though. Fines are easily brushed off in large communities like this. And collective responsibility means its not the leaders who take responsibility either. Instead it would just create more barriers between the community and the outside world. Inside it would end up pushing a wedge in deeper with the leaders have more control rather than less as they can use such a fine to demonise the outside world further.

If legal action is taken, it needs to be directed exclusively at leaders and involve more than merely fines.

[quote trulydelicious]@RedToothBrush

That just highlights the vulnerability of some members of such communities though

I'm confused, why do you keep going on about the vulnerability of women in this community, etc?

Shouldn't this thread be about the fact that they broke the law and put everyone at risk?[/quote]
Errrr because its not as black and white as you say and how its only a tiny number of people who are active decision makers in the community.

Everyone else just does what they are told.

@Haenow

significant number of predominantly women and children who have been subjected to coercive control, brainwashing and will be completely and utterly indoctrinated

We understand this (to an extent) by now and we empathise. Enough.

So, what next? What do you suggest? Should the law apply to them or not?

Haven't RTFT but...

I used to work for a Chassidic family. Lovely people, very sweet to me and I kept in touch for a while afterwards. They were very moral in the sense of scrupulous honesty, and were very kind and fair employers, but their attitude to the actual law could be a bit ambiguous - they would cheerfully overload the car with DC, for example. They were not from the same sect as the ones in the news, and were a little more outward looking: the radio went on sometimes, but there was never any mainstream news media in the house. Despite this, they were not entirely uninformed - I'd get questions about why a politician had done a certain thing, for example.

They ended up with 6 or 7 children, a small to middling family by their standards. If a cousin (probably one of 8 DC) was to get married to someone also one of 8 DC, and all their siblings and siblings' spouses and kids were invited (which is pretty normal), plus most of the aunties, uncles, cousins, cousins' DC, and various GPs (they marry young, anyone, man or woman, can expect to be a GP by the time they're in their late 40s) you'd rack up the numbers pretty fast.

Couple the ambiguous attitude towards the civil law (especially anything recent) with huge families, and that's half the answer. I suspect the other half will turn out to be who was getting married - the son or daughter of someone highly influential would be my guess. That would bring in social pressure.

It's not acceptable, and I wouldn't be surprised if members of other Chassidic groups are upset about it - they much prefer to stay out of the headlines.

@RedToothBrush

If legal action is taken, it needs to be directed exclusively at leaders and involve more than merely fines

Perhaps, yes

Sorry sorry sorry for the DM link but here is an example of control within the community: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6475277/amp/Victim-born-ultra-orthodox-Jewish-community-tells-finally-courage-flee.html

There are also various podcast interviews with folk who left the community.

@Allfednonedead

I live just around the corner from the venue, which ironically is allowing its carpark to be used for a covid test centre. As people have said, weddings like this are standard in this very closely knit community. Unfortunately some leaders in the community have led their followers to believe they are somehow exempt from the rules, while there are others who are skeptical of the whole thing. Others in the community, including volunteer ambulance teams, are working extremely hard to counter this, but it's not easy in a community that for historical and cultural reasons is suspicious of the mainstream.

Agreed. Weddings of this size is pretty common in this community.

However, I'm just down the road from the venue and will say adherence to the lockdown rules hasn't been strong in this neighbourhood.

EG: In lockdown one, there were 50-60 young male members of the Charedi community, burning fires in oil drums, playing hebrew/yiddish dance music and having a party in my estate's car park. No social distancing, no masks, much gathering. A neighbour phoned the fire brigade, what with burning drums in car parks & stuff, they turned up, took a look at it and left. No police turned up to disperse the crowd, despite being called repeatedly. When asked about what was going on, and the fact it was against lockdown rules, charedi neighbour shrugged & informed us that "we believe in the laws of god, not the laws of mankind" before wandering in to join the party.

In the current lockdown, are still operating locally, clothes shops, shoe shops, jewellery shops, hosiery shops. Like in the wedding venue, paper is just put up to cover the windows so no one can see in (is very commonplace now), and shop grilles are lifted to allow customers in and out throughout. The local jewellery shop even started selling Dettol, cereal & ketchup so they could be seen to be selling 'essential items' and then stay open.

Honestly, it really is quite frustrating, and makes me feel rather unsafe. This is a community that has been ravaged by COVID 19 and while some clearly are paying attention to the pandemic and following the rules, for lots of reasons, many are not.

Needless to say, all my shopping is online delivered and has been since the summer, just because I don't feel safe around here with rules being so flagrantly disregarded by so many (but not all!) in the community.

(NC for this, of course.)

Everyone else just does what they are told
The women of the community and coercive control
Hmm, not as simple as that.
The wife of the couple I worked for once tore her husband off a massive strip, with me obviously in earshot, about what she thought was atrocious parenting on his part. She had much more clout in that relationship than I had expected. Possibly she was an outlier. Possibly not. The way the society is set up make coercive control very possible, but women are often well supported by their mothers, aunts, sisters and friends.

Chassidim are not drones, they are very capable.of making their own choices. They just make them within a framework that is very alien to most of us. It's very hard to escape, but many people find considerable contentment within that culture.

[quote trulydelicious]@Haenow

significant number of predominantly women and children who have been subjected to coercive control, brainwashing and will be completely and utterly indoctrinated

We understand this (to an extent) by now and we empathise. Enough.

So, what next? What do you suggest? Should the law apply to them or not?[/quote]
You sound very empathetic.

The law absolutely does apply, although obviously not to children. Fines are a tiny part of it. The community needs support and education.