Who would even know 400 people willing to break LD law?

[TheQueef]

Just saw it on the news.
Any of you could muster 400 people to break the law?
I could maybe get 20 out of everyone I've ever known, how do you even ask?
It was a school to boot! No teaching but come to school for a secret bash!

So...
YANBU no I couldn't gather a big group of rule breakers.
YABU I could easily get that many, everyone is at it.

I've lived in Stamford hill and know also a lot about the Charedi community.
Posters who have already pointed out the insular nature of their lives, adherence to their religion and leaders have it right.
It's hard to understand in this day and age but there are communities who really don't experience modern day to day life as most do.
I agree that holding this gathering was completely wrong but there are reasons they did not comply which to outsiders are not easy to understand.
The blame should focus on the community leaders who badly advised their followers and have put lives at serious risk.

I don't think I've even met 400 people...

@kidsatuniemptynester I agree about who should also be fined. The school should let out the hall should be put into special measures as they cannot be trusted re Covid 19 safety.

I don't think fines are the answer, for some actions there should be court appearances and penalties such as travel bans and in severe cases imprisonment. Dominic Cummings for example should have received a lengthy driving ban.

@HappySonHappyMum

For everyone who is suggesting that these people held this ceremony because they were ignorant of the rules - you are forgetting that they covered all the windows! If you don't know you're breaking rules you wouldn't have covered the windows would you!

Even if they knew, it doesn't mean they felt able to challenge because of the hierachical nature of the community and how if you do so, you are ostracised.

Hence my comment about it being tragic and having a much darker side, because the leadership WILL have known there was an issue (as they will be the ones in the community who are exposed to and allowed to read the media for political reasons). They actively were putting the rest of the community at risk.

But I'm sure there will have been many in the community who simply do not have the knowledge or the power to do anything differently. They do as they are told. If they don't they risk their place in the community. (And this can mean in some religious communities, your house, job and contact with your family).

Its not as simple as just saying 'why didn't they ask questions or why did they break rules'. We are talking about communities with people unable and not allowed to ask questions and being totally in the thrall of the leadership as they have no access and way of knowing what the law is in the wider world outside their community.

It sounds bonkers I know.

Sorry I haven't read the full thread.... but I wish the police closed the exit first and issued everyone a PCN as they exit rather than disperse the crowd and fine a few.

@TwirpingBird the community tends to use its own food shops and amenities. I'd be interested to know from a current resident how busy the area currently is though.

@RedToothBrush nailed it.

@TwirpingBird

So .... for all you saying they didnt know they weren't allowed to do this, or they dont know the extent of the pandemic..... how do these people get food? Dont they go into a shop, or drive somewhere and see shops shut up, and people wearing masks? Is none of them using the NHS? The argument that they had no idea is ridiculous.

Some religious companies DO opt out of the NHS.

They will tend to only shop at places within their own communities. Thats for food and clothing. Or they will be provided by the community leaders. (So you can ask the community for a coat and the community will provide you with a coat in your size).

Cars? You are making some assumptions that they HAVE cars there. A lot won't.

Haredi Jews tend to have enormous families; a dozen or so children; and its a very close community.

@TwirpingBird I appreciate it's hard to understand, but they have their own shops, their own doctors, their own services. It really is a different world within London.

That said, they do obviously use the NHS, many would go shopping in central London, etc. so there is interaction with the outside world. So I do struggle to believe they were all unaware of the rules and restrictions.

If, as posters are saying, there are people in this community who are so frightened of others that they will break the law by attending an illegal event then this cult should be shut down.

People are making excuses on here and it's disgraceful. Everyone who lives in this country has a duty to uphold the law. Ignorance is not a defence.

@kidsatuniemptynesterOrthadox or Ultra-Orthadox? While they generally dress the same their lifestyle practices are different.

Ultra-Orthadox have their own schools and will most likely shop locally in Hasidic run shops.

In the US there will be volunteer community midwives, I don’t know if this is the case in the U.K.

It’s a closed community.

"This is a need for education in some ethnic minority communities."

A £10,000 fine foe every individual involved in organizing the event would be very educational

@RedToothBrush They do have cars. Hasidic Jews do drive (not on Shabbat obviously). And they do use the NHS if they need to. So it may not be like for like to the Christian community you've been talking about.

@Grim .... but ..... a year! They havent gone beyond their road, or been to a GP, or used a hospital, or tried to have a meal out with family, or seen someone wearing a mask, in a year! No. Sorry. No way they didnt know. They may not interact with the world but they arent blind, and even their local shop would be legally bound to display covid signs and ask people to wear a mask. Its london. Insular community or not, 400 people weren't oblivious to the existence of a year long pandemic.

@TwirpingBird I appreciate it's hard to understand, but they have their own shops, their own doctors, their own services

Yes their own doctors exactly! So I very much doubt they didn't know about covid.

Hasidic Jews do drive

I should have been clearer - the men do. Obviously a different rule for the women.

Do some people here not understand the difference between excuses and explanations?

Really?

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone excuse their actions?

Phoenix fair comment. I used excuses but my language was clumsy.
However all the explanations in the world fail to convince me that there were 400 people who didn't know there was a pandemic and are unaware of the law.

@Pimlicojo

If, as posters are saying, there are people in this community who are so frightened of others that they will break the law by attending an illegal event then this cult should be shut down.

People are making excuses on here and it's disgraceful. Everyone who lives in this country has a duty to uphold the law. Ignorance is not a defence.

Its not as simple as that. We have religious freedom in this country. You can't just 'shut down' a community.

We are talking about thousands of people here.
What do you do? Forcably move people? Arrest thousands? And then what about religion? How do you 'deprogramme' people against their will when you have acted in a hostile manner to remove them from their community?

Besides which they have a right to practise as they see fit in law.

Whether there are many people being effectively financially and emotionally abused is another matter, but there isn't any way that the State has powers to disrupt these communities.

These communities largely operate outside the rest of the state. They often don't vote. They don't use state provided services (NHS, Education, Policing etc).

If there were to be 'shut down' they would merely go underground. There are far too many to just 'shut down'.

From my experience, the people I knew clearly didn't like certain aspects of their community, but they also knew that they were safe, had security, were provided jobs and were never going to want for basics. They had friends and close relationships. They liked these things and looked at the outside world and how 'cutthroat' and insecure it could be as negative things. There was a certain 'safety' within their world. I would go so far as to say they were largely happy. Probably happier than a lot of people not in such groups.

Redtoothbrush you are right of course. I'm just angry and emotional about this so probably not rational.

But everyone has a responsibility to uphold the law. These people are selfish fuckers. Their desire to do what they want does not trump others. Ignorance is no excuse.

[quote MsHedgehog]@RedToothBrush They do have cars. Hasidic Jews do drive (not on Shabbat obviously). And they do use the NHS if they need to. So it may not be like for like to the Christian community you've been talking about.[/quote]
Yes there are different rules for different ultra conservative groups. Not all are the same.

My point was more that the nature of some of these groups are very very extreme and there is a pecking order in which those at lower ranks or those who are female, don't have the ability to say no to community elders and to large important religious events.

It is definitely an issue with the leadership and about power within the religious group, rather than there being 400 people who made an active free choice to break the law on covid.

Wow, it says their rabbi died of COVID too - you would think they’d have taken the risks more seriously. I can completely understand why this happened though, I agree there will have been many attending who didn’t feel they had a choice. It would be seen as a huge snub in this kind of religious community. I doubt they were all comfortable with being there.

Or maybe they’ve just had enough and fancied a good old knees up!

The other aspect is that some deeply religious people live by ‘gods will’ for absolutely everything.

If you never discuss the outside world, travel beyond your 5 streets within which you have your shops, school etc no one comes in, you don’t read newspapers, watch TV or have an understanding of the internet let alone use it.

If you are suspicious of outsiders and believe they want to curtail your culture, if the word of your leader is sacrosanct and you’ve been bought up to never ever question.

Then yes I believe you’d barely register that there was a pandemic.

@Phoenix21

Do some people here not understand the difference between excuses and explanations

I don't have anything against this religious community -or any other for that matter

The problem is that the tone and wording some posters are using to provide these explanations (whether they are plausible or not) make it seem as if they are condoning their behaviour