Who would even know 400 people willing to break LD law?

[TheQueef]

Just saw it on the news.
Any of you could muster 400 people to break the law?
I could maybe get 20 out of everyone I've ever known, how do you even ask?
It was a school to boot! No teaching but come to school for a secret bash!

So...
YANBU no I couldn't gather a big group of rule breakers.
YABU I could easily get that many, everyone is at it.

@Pimlicojo

This made me want to cry. I've obeyed all the rules but I now just want to see my friends and family over the weekend. I felt utterly full of despair when I read this news. What is the point of anything?

same here, soul destroying isnt it.

@unmarkedbythat

will still find obeying their interpretation of god's law far more important

@luxxlisbon

These sorts of communities have long believed that they govern themselves, they have their own laws, their own police, their own schools, their own ambulance service

If you live in a country (wherever this is) you should abide by the law full stop

Or do you believe otherwise? I've heard it all now!

For those who are interested:

www.local.gov.uk/our-support/guidance-and-resources/comms-hub-communications-support/covid-19-communications/london

hackneyjsna.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Orthodox-Jewish-Health-Needs-Assessment-2018.pdf

In ireland pre covid, 400 would crop up every so often at some weddings Often been to weddings with at least 300. My sister had 280 at hers and my bro 250. I am only having 140 at min - the amount the venue will hold - This is classed as a small wedding where i am from . Depends where you live and your culture and what you want

@DeRigueurMortis

Across the UK, communities have hastily pulled together in the pandemic, with leaflets posted through doors, WhatsApp groups set up and crowdfunders launched

So they don't have access to Whatsapp or the interet then, sure

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/26/how-a-haredi-community-in-london-is-coping-with-coronavirus-photo-essay?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

@Wexone I am Irish. This is why i had 11 people in Italy for my wedding. Too many people. Too expensive 😆 I still dont think I would know 400 people to invite to my wedding (although my family would make 100 easily)

That also begs the question that as these sects clearly exist why has local authority not made sure the message got to all communities?
If there is no tech or are language barriers, misinformation about the vaccine, entire communities able to accidentally break a national emergency law etc then put marshals with leaflets on street corners, something/anything that helps everyone?I

You don't just let them crack on.

I'm not blaming the police for once it's shameful they are having to attend this shite.

we have a two tier system wherever religion and culture is involved or "tradition" . some people just carry on doing what god says or what they think god says above the law of the land

I hope the orthodox jews can combine with Catholics and others to lobby to allow tiny weddings again.

The Catholic Church is not lobbying for allowing weddings though. All it wants is to allow public masses.

@ssd

Are people on mumsnet really trying to suggest these idiots didnt know the seriousness of covid?

I mean come on

Yep.

A physically close community that works, shops and educates within itself with no access to TV, news, internet etc can be kept in total ignorance.

I’m not supporting their actions - it’s absolutely nuts/reckless etc and I agree with the fines.

However, what I know of the ultra-orthodox community tells me that their lives have probably barely changed day to day or in terms of knowledge.

@trulydelicious
Read beyond the headline of your own article.
Many strictly Orthodox Jewish families in the Stamford Hill community do not have access to social media and mainstream news outlets, so some were slow to grasp the severity of the situation.

No one is saying the actions of this group were right, but your comments on things that happen within the UK are incredibly ignorant.
Just because you don't believe something doesn't make it false.

@trulydelicious there are plenty of families in the community who don't have TV or internet access, and where English is not spoken.
So yes, it is possible that many of them are not really aware of the situation with respect to rules.
They do know of the existence of covid, sadly, because they were very hard hit in the first wave.
Friends of mine said their next door neighbours (from the community) were relying on them entirely for any information about covid because they didn't have any actual news sources.
The council has been trying to get through, but for a lot of reasons, it's not easy.

@trulydelicious

Are you confused as to the difference between an explanation and an excuse? People are trying to help you understand how and why this would have happened and why an effective response and effective prevention of recurrence needs to take into account the demographics, beliefs, norms, practices and priorities of the community. Explaining why someone might do something is not in any way saying that you agree they are right to do it.

I know it's easier not go straight to "bad people! PUNISH THEM ALL HARSHLY NOW!" than to take even half an hour to find out about the people and why they might not have the exact same experience of the world and understanding and knowledge that you do, but it is not actually going to help. I assume as someone so very, very unhappy that this has happened, you would want to prevent it happening again and prioritise that over retribution?

For everyone who is suggesting that these people held this ceremony because they were ignorant of the rules - you are forgetting that they covered all the windows! If you don't know you're breaking rules you wouldn't have covered the windows would you!

@twirpingbird yeah we at 90 with family and that no cousins. Was looking at foreign but went to one in Santorini, it was fab but not for me. Hopefully mine can go ahead this year. Say yours was amazing excatly what you wanted . One wedding we were at was 420 and it was like a cattle market we left just after the band started

[quote trulydelicious]@DeRigueurMortis

Across the UK, communities have hastily pulled together in the pandemic, with leaflets posted through doors, WhatsApp groups set up and crowdfunders launched

So they don't have access to Whatsapp or the interet then, sure

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/26/how-a-haredi-community-in-london-is-coping-with-coronavirus-photo-essay?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other[/quote]
From the article:

"Many strictly Orthodox Jewish families in the Stamford Hill community do not have access to social media and mainstream news outlets, so some were slow to grasp the severity of the situation".

Some members of the community may have access to the MSM but many do not.

Also see:

www.local.gov.uk/our-support/guidance-and-resources/comms-hub-communications-support/covid-19-communications/london

"The Charedi Orthodox Community in Hackney is largely concentrated in Stamford Hill. At approximately 30,000 people it is the largest Charedi community in Europe and households are very large, often intergenerational.
The community leads a highly observant and communal religious life, with no access to TV, radio, mainstream media and little digital access, however there is special dispensation by religious leaders for business-critical purposes. This meant that the council needed to consider how to get public health messages out to the community in a timely manner, without recourse to digital communications.
The community has high levels of distrust of secular institutions, including of local government, which is linked to history - they worry about how the data will be used Past interactions with Hackney Council around Yeshivas (unregistered schools) had sometimes led to a combative relationship with the council and distrust of the council’s motives.
The council knew that it needed to improve its knowledge and cultural competency if it was to inform and engage with the community on Covid-19. The council’s communications team didn’t have anyone from a Jewish or Charedi community, meaning there was a knowledge gap within the team."

Believe me, it really is true about the Brethren community @trulydelicious. I used to deal with a few in a professional capacity. Back in the day the only modern method of communication they were allowed to use was the telephone. They wouldn’t even have a fax machine. They don’t believe in TV, radio, computers, smartphones, the internet, credit cards, anything with bar codes on. They believe that there are messages from the devil in them. It sounds bonkers, but it is true. Also, the men won’t wear ties and they won’t break bread with anyone outside of their religion. I am not making this up.

I ended up working for a company, who at the time, we owned by the Brethen. I didn't know this before I got the job!

They had a small number of people who were 'outsiders'. They were no allowed to have lunch with us. They instead went to sit in the car or in a separate room.

They were not allowed to socialise with us. Since the people who owned the company at the time were all elders, those who worked in the company who were Brethen were always under scrutiny.

They are 'given' houses by the community when they marry, and once the children are born the women have to give up work.

When I joined the company they had only just got email a couple of years previously because they had to. Prior to that they only had fax. (This was in 2012!!!).

They got bought out and all the Brethen left to get jobs within their community. I do feel for a couple of them. There was a bloke and his wife who were genuinely lovely - the bloke was smart by their standards (they don't go to university) and was being lined up for a good job and a leadership role within the community.

There is plenty of other stuff that blows your mind.

Look them up. They have quite a few articles written about them (usually not complimentary). Its really hard to comprehend. Some groups even use religious exemptions to not pay NI. This means they also do not use the NHS (with all the implications this brings).

I'm Jewish (though clearly much more secular than your average person in Stamford Hill).

Covering the windows and running away when police turn up is very clearly understanding that what they were doing was illegal.

Generally internet access etc is severely curtailed for hasidic families but a) just like every community there are outliers so it's realistic that some sense of what's happening externally filters through and more importantly and there are permitted or "kosher" ways of accessing some information b) PRECISELY BECAUSE they don't access MSM there is a duty on religious leaders to share information as necessary - just like every other synagogue and mosque and church up and down the country has gotten to grips with hand sanitiser, masks, social distancing etc.

Also, what the fuck was the school doing renting out a large hall for any sort of event while this was going on? Of course they knew. Of course they ignored the rules and took their chances.

@HappySonHappyMum

For everyone who is suggesting that these people held this ceremony because they were ignorant of the rules - you are forgetting that they covered all the windows! If you don't know you're breaking rules you wouldn't have covered the windows would you!

I wouldn’t be surprised if many of the attendees had wondered why the organisers had covered the windows.

Haven’t rtft but apparently the windows had been covered which suggests they knew it wasn’t okay. Don’t believe the school didn’t know 400 people were attending either...

One of the guys I worked with was 23 ish. He had never listened to the radio (radio was banned in the warehouse until it was bought out). The only music he listened to was music played in the community which was religious.

He had been on the internet briefly at school. In the office, EVERYTHING was blocked online when I started except a selected number of websites which were relevant to work. (Again this changed).

He had only read community newspapers.

One of the others who was a manager (the one being lined up for a leadership role) was slightly more worldly and had been allowed to read newspapers as a result. His wife dressed ultra conservatively. She had long sleeves and covered her hair at all times. She was 22. She'd never been anywhere but her community or a sister community near Northampton.

[quote trulydelicious]@RedToothBrush

They have no or little access to media and are exceptionally naive and unaware of the wider world or anything going on in it

I'm sorry, but I don't believe this for A SECOND

Are you suggesting they don't watch TV, don't read newspapers, don't look at billboards at bus stops or have access to the internet? I don't think so

This is condemnable behaviour whichever group/religion it came from, sorry.[/quote]
That is true: the ultra orthodox community does not permit access to mainstream media, including the internet, due to concerns that exposure to the secular world can lead to moral corruption.

There may be certain individuals who are permitted a mobile phone and/or a computer for work purposes, but even then, they are often required to install filters and restrictions to prevent them from accessing anything except a few limited 'authorised' websites.

The wider community often has no such access, and are reliant on faith leaders for information.

the position varies from community to community, but in the stricter sects, people found to be accessing the internet without authorisation, or letting their children use the internet, can be ostracised. The impact of that is heightened when you consider that their teaching is so restricted as well.

While it seems completely antithetical to 'our' way of life, it is central to their sense of identity.

As others have said, covering the windows was giveaway no. 1.

And - the hiring of the hall. The school is not cut off from society. (Sil used to teach there.) Maybe there was pressure to hire it out, but nonetheless it must have been known that this was illegal.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Otherwise you could have people wandering around shooting guns and then saying, “Really? Killing illegal? Well I never!”

Covering the hall windows and running when the Police arrived are very clear indicators of awareness of the rules. As for living in a bubble ignorant of covid19? Sorry, don't accept that at all. I know from colleagues who live around Stamford Hill that many of the Orthodox community travel on public transport, presumably to school, shops, hospital, like everyone else, so unless you have been living in a windowless room with a bag over your head since March 2020, you know about the lockdown. The caterers, entertainment, people who supplied furniture, crockery, all of that, should all be fined substantially. Anyone who has a business knows they were breaking the rules. I am fucking furious, I have been under virtual house arrest, my son lives in London and I can't see him, maybe I should just have organised a Jewish wedding and invited all my family?

So .... for all you saying they didnt know they weren't allowed to do this, or they dont know the extent of the pandemic..... how do these people get food? Dont they go into a shop, or drive somewhere and see shops shut up, and people wearing masks? Is none of them using the NHS? The argument that they had no idea is ridiculous.