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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

DD’s science teacher AIBU

740 replies

Adviceneededalways · 21/01/2021 21:46

Dd14 is quite an opinionated teen and has become very sensitive to even a sniff of inequality. I think it’s quite cool that she has strong beliefs but do sometimes have to tell her her to rein it in a bit..

She came down from Google classroom tonight on a fowl mood and announced that she was drafting a complaint letter to her science teacher due to an argument they had over an exercise in class...

The exercise was dividing statements into fact and opinion, ie FACT on average the sun is 150 million miles from the sun. OPINION pineapple taste good on pizza...

The final one was girls should be able to work in any area they choose which I’m sure you have guess the teacher was adamant was opinion and if had been marked down on the sheet as such...

I personally think this is less about being opinion or fact statement and more to do with it being a poor choice of example in a class of predominantly strong minded young girls but DD is very upset and angry at her teacher.

Is she being a bit immature and dramatic or does she have a point...

I’ll include the work sheet in next post.

OP posts:
WINKINGatyourage · 21/01/2021 23:07

It’s a very good question because it’s making them think about it to work out the answer rather than it being very obviously a fact. They can’t be spoon fed everything. Some questions require brainpower.

Jellycatspyjamas · 21/01/2021 23:07

I do think there were easier less personal examples to use in a world where are trying to bring our girls/children up to believe they can succeed at anything they put their minds too and inequality is a thing of the past.

Except inequality is far from a thing of the past, it does our daughters no favours to let them think it is.

StarsonaString · 21/01/2021 23:07

Its certainly an opinion and if it was a fact, it would be untrue. Currently there are many jobs women are barred from around the world mostly wrongly. There are even a very small number of paid roles that women can never access due to biology such as sperm donor or participant in prostate related medical trials.

Lougle · 21/01/2021 23:09

@Adviceneededalways

I guess with something like this where she feels so strongly about the subject matter I’d rather let her to come the right answer herself, as we have seen here it’s a good subject matter to discuss.

Shes 14 and like any other 14 year old she doesn’t like being told she’s wrong. If she was unkind, rude (she wasn’t btw) or doing something unsafe I wouldn’t hesitate.

Discuss it by all means, but she is wrong and unswerving support when someone is wrong does them no favours.

DD2 declared that "your generation is so homophobic and transphobic" a few days ago. We had a long discussion about it, but not before I told her she was wrong, because the generation she was referring to was "the millennials" and I'm not from that generation. But it shows that she's read or heard something and accepted it wholesale without critical thought. That's not her fault, but I would be wrong to just accept her statements because I'm 'proud of her strong views'.

RevIMJolly · 21/01/2021 23:09

@Adviceneededalways

I won’t be telling my daughters she’s wrong, she’s 14 with a strong mind which I love and would never try to put her down make her feel like her opinions were irrelevant. I will however use it a point of conversation and discuss it further with her and there have been some excellent suggestions of how to do so on here so thank you.
Oh goodness... you are doing your daughter no favours here, and pandering to her, which will ultimately harm her.

Inequality still exists and you are failing her by pretending that it is otherwise.

Women and girls have to keep fighting for their rights, the gender pay gap is not going anywhere, and we are living in a world that increasingly dismisses the concerns of females, while the pornification of our culture continues.

You can help your daughter by teaching her how to use her passion and her intellect by arguing facts, by being able to defend her beliefs with truth and reason, not just because she thinks she is right.

And this starts with her understanding the difference between a fact and an opinion.

It’s an important lesson and you should be helping her learn it, not mistakenly thinking that “putting her down” will harm her.

DragonDoor · 21/01/2021 23:09

I imagine it was chosen as an example because it is a statement that strong minded young girls as you put it OP, would agree with.

The teacher is making the point that a statement such as this does not fit the definition of a ‘scientific fact‘. This is regardless of whether or not is morally right or wrong or what the students opinion is of it Wink

If your daughter took the time to listen to her teacher’s reasoning rather than arguing, she possibly would have understood that.

AttackOfTheFloppyKnob · 21/01/2021 23:11

Of course it's an opinion.......I mean a girl isn't going to get very far as a male, gay pornstar or member of the Chippendales now are they ? 🤨

Bringonspring · 21/01/2021 23:12

Well hold on people, in the UK is this not a fact? I think I’ve seen one example of a nuclear power station (and that was only child bearing) so I presume older women can.

The sub marine one was dismissed

I understand it’s different in other countries, but here in the UK? Women can be on the front line now?

Interested to here others, I understand it’s harder for women to progress. But any they are not allowed to?

OP your Dd sounds great, would hate to raise a DD to be think she can’t achieve anything/there are any barriers-well fine you

2pinkginsplease · 21/01/2021 23:13

Your dd is being dramatic!

Of course it’s an opinion.

WINKINGatyourage · 21/01/2021 23:13

I won’t be telling my daughters she’s wrong, she’s 14 with a strong mind which I love and would never try to put her down make her feel like her opinions were irrelevant.

You won’t tell your daughter she is wrong, when she is wrong?? You’re doing her no favours at all. You’re sending her out with a confidence based on lies and she will make a fool of herself. You owe her better than that.

Bringonspring · 21/01/2021 23:14

Ps the sperm sonar is a stupid one, this is about being bared from a job even when you have the physical characteristics to do it

Jellycatspyjamas · 21/01/2021 23:14

Well hold on people, in the UK is this not a fact?

A woman can’t be a catholic priest in the U.K. or hold a leadership role in some churches, it’s not a fact in the U.K.

Bringonspring · 21/01/2021 23:16

Good point of catholic priest

So we have catholic priest and a child bearing age women in a nuclear power station. Others?

Jellycatspyjamas · 21/01/2021 23:16

I won’t be telling my daughters she’s wrong, she’s 14 with a strong mind which I love and would never try to put her down make her feel like her opinions were irrelevant.

It’s not about whether her opinions were irrelevant, it’s that her opinions aren’t fact, no matter how much she believes in them. Which was the whole point of the exercise.

HercwasanEnemyofEducation · 21/01/2021 23:17

I personally think this is less about being opinion or fact statement and more to do with it being a poor choice of example in a class of predominantly strong minded young girls but DD is very upset and angry at her teacher.

It's a brilliant example! It is an opinion, but delving into why it is an opinion and not a scientific fact has clearly provoked a lot of thought in your dd.

She is wrong. But the thought process as to why she is wrong is most important.

Indecisive12 · 21/01/2021 23:17

Do you have a son OP? Just asking because I regularly have conversations with mine on the limitations of girls/women so that they can see the injustice and hopefully fight against them as they grow older.
I too think you should have a conversation with your daughter, it’s all healthy debate and it’s good she’s passionate but she also needs to know when she’s wrong.

Onjnmoeiejducwoapy · 21/01/2021 23:18

Your daughter is being ridiculous, and I’d have no problem telling her so! It’s the whole point of the exercise after all, which she has failed pretty spectacularly by falling into the big trap of “if I strongly believe it, it’s fact not opinion”

Maybe it’s a maturity thing?

cdtaylornats · 21/01/2021 23:20

Boys should be able to work in any area they choose is not a fact and is a false opinion - wet-nurse is impossible.

Girls should be able to work in any area they choose is not a fact and is a false opinion - sperm donor is impossible.

Both your DD and her teacher are wrong.

mathdoc · 21/01/2021 23:20

There are probably people who know a lot more about the philosophy of this than I do, but I just wanted to point out that scientific facts are not necessarily true either. The scientific method is not set up to prove things are true - we are actually trying to disprove things. My understanding is that a scientific fact is simply one that is generally accepted by the scientific community, is accurate enough for the purpose required and has not yet been disproved (and even then, we are sometimes a little lenient on the last one - for example, Newton's law of gravity has been superceded by Einstein's ideas, but they are often still considered and taught as scientific facts).

So things like

  • Nobody in the UK can jump over 3m high
  • The young of a cat is called a kitten
  • God created the world

might all be true, but would not count as a scientific fact since none of them can be disproved by repeatable experiments.

Realising that facts (in the scientific sense) are not the same as "truth" might help your daughter understand that calling something an opinion does not make it less than valid - it just changes ways in which it can be debated.

The work of Karl Popper is probably the gold standard on this if she is of a really philosophical bent - but much of the key ideas are summed up by Pheobe in one of my favourite clips from Friends:

titchy · 21/01/2021 23:22

@Bringonspring

Ps the sperm sonar is a stupid one, this is about being bared from a job even when you have the physical characteristics to do it
No it's not. The question doesn't say anything about having the physical ability/attributes.

Plenty of roles working with vulnerable or minor clients / students will be limited to one sex or the other. Premier league football players.

nostaples · 21/01/2021 23:22

Being a sperm donor is not a job or actually work just as a point of fact @cdtaylornats

Bringonspring · 21/01/2021 23:24

I guess I moved on to actual jobs women are restricted from for no physical characteristics? Sorry but we have so far only come up with 2. Which I think is something to celebrate

Clearly more to do in the fact that done careers are still more obtainable if you are male etc.

VeniVidiWeeWee · 21/01/2021 23:28

That worksheet was issued by a science teacher?

How have they still got a job when they don't know basic facts?

NoSquirrels · 21/01/2021 23:29

@Pukkatea

Yes it's a poor example and the teacher should know better, but from a science perspective it is an opinion and not a fact. As an example it could highlight that just because something is morally right or everyone believes it (or should) still doesn't make it a scientific fact. But you're right that it's a dumb move.
I think it’s this - that this specific example is there to challenge their assumptions on scientific fact vs general opinion.

If not, it’s shit.

Either way, at 14 I think she’ll learn more from challenging it than either ignoring it or accepting it. So crack on letting her complain, I say.

orangenasturtium · 21/01/2021 23:29

Lifeisbeautiful01 has put it succinctly.

The point of the exercise is to make students think about what is a fact (something that can be proved) rather than an opinion. The teacher needed something that hopefully all of the class have a strong belief in and is widely considered to be correct to make them think consider whether it is something that can be proven. Something that is right/correct is not necessarily a fact, even if it is enshrined in law in the UK. The teacher needed an example that is going to result in debate and that students will have strong held beliefs about. I guess "you should not murder" might have been a more politically correct example.