DD’s science teacher AIBU

[Adviceneededalways]

Dd14 is quite an opinionated teen and has become very sensitive to even a sniff of inequality. I think it’s quite cool that she has strong beliefs but do sometimes have to tell her her to rein it in a bit..

She came down from Google classroom tonight on a fowl mood and announced that she was drafting a complaint letter to her science teacher due to an argument they had over an exercise in class...

The exercise was dividing statements into fact and opinion, ie FACT on average the sun is 150 million miles from the sun. OPINION pineapple taste good on pizza...

The final one was girls should be able to work in any area they choose which I’m sure you have guess the teacher was adamant was opinion and if had been marked down on the sheet as such...

I personally think this is less about being opinion or fact statement and more to do with it being a poor choice of example in a class of predominantly strong minded young girls but DD is very upset and angry at her teacher.

Is she being a bit immature and dramatic or does she have a point...

I’ll include the work sheet in next post.

The word "should" makes it an opinon, if the word was "can" it would still make it an opinion as they can't (some countries still legally ban women from certain jobs). But agree, wrong question for a class of idealistic teenagers.

It isn’t a fact- it’s been deliberately chosen to illustrate how problematic it can be to decide between fact and opinion. She obviously wanted to make them think; brave choice! It’s not as though she is being sexist- good lesson for the students and nothing to complain about I’d suggest.

But it is an opinion...

Ugh, technically it is an opinion, but why on earth would she use such a dreadful example, particularly without a positive fact about what women can do to balance it out. Girls think science is inaccessible enough without taking opportunities in science lessons to remind them that lots of people think they should stay in their box.

Let her write the letter, I say. I think it's good she feels so strongly about it.

I hope the discussion in the lesson went like this - great outcome which I expect was the point!

The “should” gives it away and puts it firmly in the “opinion” camp. It was probably chosen to illustrate the point that it isn’t always blindingly obvious what is a fact and what is an opinion; some broadly held opinions are said to be “true”, but aren’t scientific facts.

So - if we said “girls can work in any area they choose”, that would imply that girls as a class (ie all girls) can do this. But this is patently untrue. My DD is a girl, but is unlikely to be able to work as a professional tennis player, because she isn’t very good. Or as a viola teacher, because she can’t play it. So therefore the statement fails as a fact. Should she be able to work as a tennis player just because she chooses to? No - because it’s a competitive sport etc etc.

I think the teacher was trying to highlight that it can be a more subtle difference than people think....

I think the teacher had deliberately picked something controversial to demonstrate the difference between facts and opinions.

@Hillwalker1 Why do we need strong feelings?! I'm all for calm reflection and knuckling down

Silly example - or one designed to engage their attention?

'Should' is the giveaway.

There are plenty of countries in which girls cannot work in any field they choose and in which the government, teachers and probably the majority of the population would agree that they should not be able to. That is a factual statement.

Your dd has allowed herself to fall into a bear self-righteous teenager trap. I'd advise her not to be so easily led, or wound up, in future. A lot of people gain a lot of amusement by distracting young women with energy-sapping wind-ups, to keep them away from the important things in life, like educational excellence. This is a useful learning point for her.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance but you'll never be able to see the woods, if you keep crashing into the trees.

I guess with something like this where she feels so strongly about the subject matter I’d rather let her to come the right answer herself, as we have seen here it’s a good subject matter to discuss.

Shes 14 and like any other 14 year old she doesn’t like being told she’s wrong. If she was unkind, rude (she wasn’t btw) or doing something unsafe I wouldn’t hesitate.

Anything that includes conclusion-drawing modal verbs (must, should, etc) is an opinion. It can be a true opinion (Socrates was pretty hot on these) but is not a 'fact' under the definition.

Your DD is right in terms of her true opinion, but I might guess that in a science lesson the teaching point would be to look for the signal words in statements that indicate opinion, in prep for a particular form of scientific reading.

[quote Adviceneededalways]@Cabinfever10 this is incorrect.

Ironically my DH and DD’s dad is currently serving on a V class submarine and I can tell you there are most definitely female ratings and officers as part of the crew.

There are only a few stag boats left and this is mainly due to space (separate toilet blocks/cabins etc) and a good thing it is too.[/quote]
That isn’t ironic. It’s a coincidence, but not an irony.

It's not a bad example at all. It's been deliberately chosen as something that absolutely should be the case, but isn't a fact.
Teachers don't, and shouldn't, only put in examples that are easy to decide on. They need to extend their pupils thinking.

Remember this is a science task. It's vital that pupils recognise what is factual and provable. Offering an example of something that their class will instantly react to as something they believe to be true, but isn't factual, provides an excellent teaching point.

When they go through this list in the next lesson, the teacher will pick that up and explain why it isn't a fact. And that's how the class will learn what science considers factual.

This is a great example of fact vs. opinion. I’m sorry but too often people (including adults get this so wrong). It’s also a great lesson to teach just because you want something to be true doesn’t mean that it is.

If your goal is to have your daughter shut down facts that she doesn’t like, then by all means let her go on with this thinking.

If your goal is a daughter who who can accept facts even ones they think are wrong or should be wrong then I’d really use this a learning opportunity.

Let’s say next week she gets a poor grade on a test... she may disagree with that and believe she should have done better only to keep getting poor grades, disprove the fact and demonstrate she earned a higher higher grade, or accept the fact and study harder to earn a better grade.

Which one(s) would you want her to do?

@doodlejump1980

Great. Another teacher bashing thread. Just what we need.

Teachers are never wrong on AIBU. Fact.

I would advise your daughter to change the example, and ask if it would be acceptable to write “(X nationality) should be able to work in any area they chose”, if not, why not.

I don’t think either example is acceptable for the school to use.

I think it's an excellent example to use, it illustrates the point very well and will open up conversation.
She's a great teacher.

In what career can girls not work nowadays? I’m struggling to think of one, or am I being really dumb?

Catholic priesthood. It’s an opinion but clearly not a fact.

@adeleh

It’s an opinion. I think your DD massively over-reacting.

This^. It will be wonderful if some day it is a fact, but right now it is an opinion.

@Jellycatspyjamas

In what career can girls not work nowadays? I’m struggling to think of one, or am I being really dumb?

Catholic priesthood. It’s an opinion but clearly not a fact.

Or quite a lot of roles in other countries.

It's easy to forget that in other parts of the world life is very different.

In what career can girls not work nowadays? I’m struggling to think of one, or am I being really dumb?

Globally you can’t think of a single example?

It’s a very good example. Part of the remit of education is to make people aware of uncomfortable truths and equip them deal with them. Once your DD gets over her upset - and she’s entitled to her feelings - she will be better prepared to argue her case in other difficult contexts.

Great post @lottiegarbanzo

Or quite a lot of roles in other countries

Absolutely, or indeed have any job at all without permission from their father, husband, other male authority figure. Just because we want it to be doesn’t make it so.

It’s actually a good example because it’s challenging. It’s a statement that you want to be true, and as a principle should be true, but actually isn’t. There aren’t many male only roles left, but there are some that women are still barred from e.g. commercial decompression diving due to increased risk of nitrogen toxicity, catholic priest. There are also roles that may be advertised as male only due to EA2010 exemptions. Outside the UK of course it’s a different story, I’m France women can’t be employed in roles that regularly require carrying over 55lb, in China women can’t be miners etc.