DD’s science teacher AIBU

[Adviceneededalways]

Dd14 is quite an opinionated teen and has become very sensitive to even a sniff of inequality. I think it’s quite cool that she has strong beliefs but do sometimes have to tell her her to rein it in a bit..

She came down from Google classroom tonight on a fowl mood and announced that she was drafting a complaint letter to her science teacher due to an argument they had over an exercise in class...

The exercise was dividing statements into fact and opinion, ie FACT on average the sun is 150 million miles from the sun. OPINION pineapple taste good on pizza...

The final one was girls should be able to work in any area they choose which I’m sure you have guess the teacher was adamant was opinion and if had been marked down on the sheet as such...

I personally think this is less about being opinion or fact statement and more to do with it being a poor choice of example in a class of predominantly strong minded young girls but DD is very upset and angry at her teacher.

Is she being a bit immature and dramatic or does she have a point...

I’ll include the work sheet in next post.

Tbh, I'm horrified at the percentage of people who think you're being unreasonable! It's completely sexist. Shows the mindset of many people, men and women, in a patriarchal society, just accepting discrimination as the norm. Therefore perpetuating it. Makes me mad. Good for your daughter. I'm right behind her
Oh dear, yet another person who has missed the point entirely.

The question wasn't 'is this opinion sexist'. If thay was the question then the thread would be very different.

The question was whether the statement was a fact or an opinion. It is an opinion.

The fact so many adults are getting frothy over an opinion being correctly labelled as an opinion only highlights exactly why the difference between fact and opinion needs teaching.

“Sorry, schooling doesn’t work like that. Students don’t get to learn in their own way in their own time. They get to learn the curriculum according to the timetable laid out by the school. If you want to teach her according to a different time table, that’s fine. De register her”

I hope to god you’re not a teacher because the copy and paste blanket approach to teaching is a thing of the past..

All children learn in different ways and benefit from approaching learning and understanding in various means.

Hence why my child seen the correct answer through discussion and further example...

I misread "should" as "could". Yes, it is an opinion, an appalling one as others above have said.

You think the opinion "Girls should be able to work in any field they chose" is an appalling opinion??

@Adviceneededalways

Just to clear a few things up, the idea that I’m scared of my daughter is absolutely laughable, I have 3 of them and made of stronger stuff than that...

I’m actually pretty proud of her, there are no pouting pictures of her on Instagram and instead she uses this as a platform to educate and share information of what is going on in the world. She has quite the thing for American politics and has been pretty clued up throughout the election. She is musical and creative with her own style. She’s kind and generous and wears her heart on her sleeve which occasionally hurts my heart a little, she volunteered with beach clean up and soup kitchens and is always asking if there is more she can do...

She is also on the more academic track (schools phrase) and is excelling in most subjects and is well liked by her teachers.

I have no problem telling her she is wrong about something if the answer is black and white but as we have seen within the 13+ pages on here with this, it is not...

What is wrong with pouting pictures ... you can still put pouting pictures on social media and still do all the things you think are so great .

Nothing worse than someone who puts other women down to elevate their own girl.

She is wrong and needs to be told. You are pandering to her .

This thread is so depressing - so much internalised misogyny on display

Firstly, for calling a young woman “rude” and “a little madam” who “needs to learn her place”, all for wanting to stand up for something she believes in This is exactly why many women don’t speak up or stand up for themselves in the workplace, because they’ve been brought up to ‘stay quiet’, ‘don’t make a fuss’, ‘know your place, don’t make a scene’. Of course OP’s daughter is entitled to speak up if she’s upset about something, whether it’s a teacher, friend or boss who has made her feel that way. OP you should be proud of her for speaking up when she feel’s something’s wrong - maybe suggest a career in politics or law to her? Law is full of opinionated, assertive women just like your DD - I’m sure she would do really well

Secondly, it’s not just a question of whether the statement really was a “fact” or an “opinion”. The issue here is that the teacher used a completely inappropriate example that should only be used in a school environment to show how society has failed women in the past (e.g. during a history lesson) or how women are still striving for full equality today (e.g. a PSHE lesson). To just throw it in as a casual opinion in a science lesson is making light of the very real sexism still alive and well today, which is understandably upsetting for many girls. Imagine if she’d used the example “black people should be able to work in any field”. Would that be ok without a major discussion about the relevant history and current struggle for equality? Or would it in fact be completely trivialising the major racism and discrimination black people have suffered for centuries?

Schools are meant to be a place where girls are inspired to be the best they can be, not somewhere where causal sexism is dropped in and not fully discussed. Staggered and disappointed that so many of you can’t see that. Worrying that many of you are likely mothers of daughters And very poor show (/at best lazy re-using of a very old worksheet) from the teacher.

It's not internalised misogyny - DD is a pupil an for her to be shocked and offended and write a letter of complaint is preposterous, totally ridiculous.

I get your point re the worksheet, but it's not comparable.

Firstly, for calling a young woman “rude” and “a little madam” who “needs to learn her place”, all for wanting to stand up for something she believes in shock This is exactly why many women don’t speak up or stand up for themselves in the workplace, because they’ve been brought up to ‘stay quiet’, ‘don’t make a fuss’, ‘know your place, don’t make a scene’. Of course OP’s daughter is entitled to speak up if she’s upset about something, whether it’s a teacher, friend or boss who has made her feel that way

Oh please! OP's daughter was WRONG. The only one who made her upset was herself. Speaking up and making a fuss when you are wrong and have not understood is not brave, it is idiotic. It is counter productive.
Don't teach your young women that that they should sit down and shut up...but equally don't teach them that they should always be listened to, that they always have a point.
If you're wrong, you shouldn't complain about how upset you are.

The fact that you are also wrong and have not understood the question means your impassioned rant is not inspiring as you imagine, but an embarrassment.

@neonjumper OP isn't putting anyone down. She is responding to the PP who called her daughter a princess who pouts on Instagram which came from nowhere.

Secondly, it’s not just a question of whether the statement really was a “fact” or an “opinion”.

And yet, it really, really was.

It's important that young women are listened to. Being able to distinguish facts from opinions will go a long way towards making their arguments credible and worth being listened to.

If they are unable to do distinguish, well, there are plenty of recent examples of the harm that comes from giving credibility to 'alternative facts'.

Teachers deserve a medal for putting up with bullshit like this. Honestly, how do some people get through the day if this offends them. Teach your daughter a little perspective and resilience.

I get the point that it's an opinion in the context of the paper. These days many opinions are presented as facts, and this is problematic in many areas. Instead of piling in and patronising me, why not consider that I was looking at the bigger picture of sexism in society, and the subliminal messages being directed at young people. It should be unacceptable to hold that opinion. As someone said earlier, I don't think they would have used 'black people' in that example.

I'm with you. Really depressing. Like turkeys voting for Xmas.

Fact vs opinion may not be quite as clear cut as some including the teacher in question here think.

There are those who think the only facts are scientific ones. Others think there are other sorts of fact.

This may be a case in point. 'Girls should ... ' gives the game away. Read this as 'It ought to be the case that ... ' and you may spot that this is basically a moral claim.

OK, many people nowadays think morality is just a matter of opinion. But others think, no; certain things are just simply right or wrong whatever people think. Quite often this is posed in terms of objectivity or moral absolutism; roughly speaking, moral absolutism claims there are moral facts, whereas the opposition (often called 'relativism') claims that, no, moral claims are no more than statements of opinion, whether at a personal or societal level.

If you think there are no moral facts, you must be prepared to say that, for instance, it is not a fact that slavery is wrong. Or, perhaps more relevantly here, you might wish to say that it is not a fact that discrimination against girls and women is wrong.

The science teacher in question might well learn something about the complexity of the idea of a 'fact' from pupils such as the OP's daughter, it strikes me. And the young woman in question might well consider, on further reflection, that her initial reaction that it is a (moral) fact that girls and women should not be discriminated against regarding their choice of employment captured the truth of the matter after all. That is, it is true although not a scientific truth that girls ought not to suffer discrimination on grounds of sex.

[For OP's daughter: If you are interested in an example of who thinks there are moral facts (apart from some random on MN), perhaps you could look up some of the writings of JJ Thomson (that is Judith Jarvis the philosopher, not Joseph John the physicist). (She also wrote a hugely influential piece on abortion that you might come across in your search; no harm in that!)

Oh, and if you want to put your teacher on the spot (if he has anything to him as a teacher he should be pleased you do so), ask him whether his own assessment of what constitutes scientific method is itself a scientific fact or just an opinion.]

9toenails, agreed. (And the teacher is a woman.)

The one scientific 'fact' in this starter worksheet is also apparently rather questionable - as in, probably fairly easy to question and unpick - but no, that's supposed to be taken as read too. These things can also change when they get out of date, as do opinions.

Thinking more about this, and even this may be too questionable an example, I was wondering whether an improvement might be 'People who are colourblind should be able to do any job they want to.' It still makes me think that putting this one in the same rough ballpark as 'Pineapple is nice' is not very appropriate.

9toenails, you lost me when you assumed and said the teacher was he, when it's kind of important detail on this thread, and OP and PPs clearly stated this teacher is a she as a fact.

@Xerochrysum

9toenails, you lost me when you assumed and said the teacher was he, when it's kind of important detail on this thread, and OP and PPs clearly stated this teacher is a she as a fact.

Whoops! Yes, thanks Xerochrysum. Shows two things, I suspect:

1. I did not read the thread at all thoroughly?

1. My unconscious bias?

My bad, both. Sorry, OP's DD's science teacher!

Speaking up and making a fuss when you are wrong and have not understood is not brave, it is idiotic. It is counter productive.
Don't teach your young women that that they should sit down and shut up...but equally don't teach them that they should always be listened to, that they always have a point.
This.

Teach girls to be assertive, teach them about their rights, encourage them to strive for a world that is more equitable, teach them how to spot feckless grandchildren, teach them to aim high, and also teach them to have the reflection skills to realise when they are wrong.

Knowing when and how to complain is a useful life skill and it doesn't come down to 'but I think X therefore I am right'.

Some people don't seem to understand the difference between being assertive and being an arrogant PITA, which is why poor retail workers have to deal with stroppy arseholes (of both sexes) throwing their weight around, demanding to see managers for refunds they aren't entitled to and why school staff have to deal with silly complaints where someone with zero educational experience decides they know how best to teach a lesson because some people on mumsnet agreed with them.

@LolaSmiles

Speaking up and making a fuss when you are wrong and have not understood is not brave, it is idiotic. It is counter productive. Don't teach your young women that that they should sit down and shut up...but equally don't teach them that they should always be listened to, that they always have a point. This.

Teach girls to be assertive, teach them about their rights, encourage them to strive for a world that is more equitable, teach them how to spot feckless grandchildren, teach them to aim high, and also teach them to have the reflection skills to realise when they are wrong.

Knowing when and how to complain is a useful life skill and it doesn't come down to 'but I think X therefore I am right'.

Some people don't seem to understand the difference between being assertive and being an arrogant PITA, which is why poor retail workers have to deal with stroppy arseholes (of both sexes) throwing their weight around, demanding to see managers for refunds they aren't entitled to and why school staff have to deal with silly complaints where someone with zero educational experience decides they know how best to teach a lesson because some people on mumsnet agreed with them.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Not sure why it autocorrected to 'grandchildren'

Feckless MANchildren

You've made a lot of wholly wrong statements about me that I resent. Care to apologise?

@Catcoffeecake

You've made a lot of wholly wrong statements about me that I resent. Care to apologise?

Who has?

9toenails

Except it’s not morally clear cut.

There are exemptions where jobs are open to only one sex. Certain caring and MH roles. Some counselling roles. Some jobs within sexual assault and rape crisis support. Some professional sporting jobs are segregated by sex - so a woman couldn’t apply for a job as fly half in the England men’s rugby team, for example.

I think that’s a good thing. That’s my opinion. Morally I think it’s right.

Sadly, this is opinion - not fact.

I think your DD (and lots of people on this thread) has misunderstood the exercise. Differentiating fact from opinion is about verbal reasoning, amongst other things. And a significant (some argue - the majority) number of people find this quite difficult.

The example is actually a very good one to use as it's emotive, it has moral implications etc

All girls should be able to work in any area they choose. It should be a fact. It's not. (And that's ignoring the practicalities eg whether or not they're qualified/skilled to do so.)

When doing exercises like this, and it won't be the last time - lots of companies use these sorts of tests, along with others, to determine a person's processing capability /style /suitability - it's important to stand back and not attach our own view/belief on it.

It's a great example and 10s of pages of responses shown this

MadMadaMim
👏👏👏👏👏

This may be a case in point. 'Girls should ... ' gives the game away. Read this as 'It ought to be the case that ... ' and you may spot that this is basically a moral claim

@9toenails, this was an introductory lesson designed to illustrate the difference between fact and opinion, which I assume took place in a science class.

Moral claims occur in specific cultural contexts. They are not absolute or universal. Science attempts to posit universally applicable laws.

Examples of moral claims taken from MN threads:
Parents should not be allowed to get their small children's ears pierced.
Women should not breastfeed in public.

I am not going to include more dramatic examples of 'should' statements that can be found in other parts of the world because so many people here have poor comprehension skills and I don't want to start a bunfight.

As part of a Global Cultural Studies course, it would be interesting to note how many moral claims refer to women and girls and how many refer to boys and men, what any disparity shows in terms of origin of the moral claims and their intention, and the impact of all those moral claims on each group. But this was an introductory course designed to hone basic reading skills in order to prepare students to engage with the scientific method. IMO, it is clear from the DD's response that more honing is needed.