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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

DD’s science teacher AIBU

740 replies

Adviceneededalways · 21/01/2021 21:46

Dd14 is quite an opinionated teen and has become very sensitive to even a sniff of inequality. I think it’s quite cool that she has strong beliefs but do sometimes have to tell her her to rein it in a bit..

She came down from Google classroom tonight on a fowl mood and announced that she was drafting a complaint letter to her science teacher due to an argument they had over an exercise in class...

The exercise was dividing statements into fact and opinion, ie FACT on average the sun is 150 million miles from the sun. OPINION pineapple taste good on pizza...

The final one was girls should be able to work in any area they choose which I’m sure you have guess the teacher was adamant was opinion and if had been marked down on the sheet as such...

I personally think this is less about being opinion or fact statement and more to do with it being a poor choice of example in a class of predominantly strong minded young girls but DD is very upset and angry at her teacher.

Is she being a bit immature and dramatic or does she have a point...

I’ll include the work sheet in next post.

OP posts:
Original poster
Adviceneededalways · 21/01/2021 22:32

@PamDenick yes I noticed that and I did actually say that the teacher was actually female. Grin

OP posts:
donewithitalltodayandxmas · 21/01/2021 22:33

You won't tell her she is wrong but from a scientific point on this work she is incorrect.
She is mixing facts and opinions with her belief really .
So surely you say she is incorrect but you get where she is coming from , and did she have a discussion or argument with teacher ? As one is different to the other

Yearbook76 · 21/01/2021 22:34

This reply has been deleted

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ltappleby · 21/01/2021 22:34

Not what you were asking, but the worksheet is incorrect - sun is not 150 million miles from the earth - it should read 150 million kilometres, which is 93 million miles.

Backtoblack1 · 21/01/2021 22:35

But she is wrong. It’s not a fact.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 21/01/2021 22:35

It is an opinion as pps have said. In many, many countries in the world, it is a fact that girls can't work in any profession they choose.

It doesn't mean it's right. But that doesn't mean it's false.

SarahAndQuack · 21/01/2021 22:36

@nostaples

YABU debating is a good thing in any case

But we're not talking about philosophy here and in this only just post Trump era distinguishing between fact and opinion is actually quite important.

The OP and her child does need to look at the dictionary definitions.

It is GENERALLY accepted that a table has 4 legs and that is a FACT. That there may be tables where a leg has dropped off, does not make it any less than a fact.

The idea that my table is nice is clearly an opinion.

What makes this even more clear is that 100 years ago it was believed that women could NOT do anything they wanted so v clearly it is an opinion.

Whereas 100 years ago and in America as well as China a table has 4 legs.

Um, but ... what about the many places where tables have three legs?

This is a really weird idea you've got. Tripod tables are a pretty standard thing. There have been periods in English history when people preferred circular tables with a single 'leg' underneath the middle.

NachoNachoMan · 21/01/2021 22:36

@Cherrysoup

I think she has a point but I think the teacher walked right into that one! He should know his audience better. Silly of him, plus I think your dd was right. In what career can girls not work nowadays? I’m struggling to think of one, or am I being really dumb?
This has reminded me of a quote from Friends (Rachel wants to employ a male nanny for their baby, Ross is not so sure)

Joey: That's like a woman wantin' to be a...
Ross: A what? A what? What's the end of that sentence?
Monica: Yes, what is the end of that sentence?
Joey: Ummm... a penis model.

Anyway...

Let your daughter write the letter. It will be good practice for her, I think it's important to learn how to calmly and rationally explain an argument. The science teacher should be supportive of that - I know it's a stressful job during difficult times, but I think it's something to be proud of having a daughter with such a strong mindset. If that question came up 100 years ago, no doubt it would be an opinion, maybe in 100 years it will be even more normal to see women in equal positions in greater numbers.

Wheresmykimchi · 21/01/2021 22:36

Stupid exercise by the teacher.

Ridiculous of DD to "complain" - she is not the teacher's equal.

Daft all round.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 21/01/2021 22:38

And she is wrong OP. You're not doing her any favours by not pointing this out - and I am all for raising strong women.

Thanks also to the pps who posted that some posts are sex-exempt, I hadn't thought of that.

Palavah · 21/01/2021 22:38

@Adviceneededalways

I won’t be telling my daughters she’s wrong, she’s 14 with a strong mind which I love and would never try to put her down make her feel like her opinions were irrelevant. I will however use it a point of conversation and discuss it further with her and there have been some excellent suggestions of how to do so on here so thank you.
The world will be a better place when everyone is able to take being wrong, contradicted, or disagreed with and not be mortally offended by it. We seem to have lost the art of mature and reasoned critique.

PPs have pointed out that science is about continued readjustment of accepted fact as well as opinion.

nostaples · 21/01/2021 22:38

@SarahAndQuack but you can prove whether a table does or doesn't. It is a fact that most tables have four legs.

Robbybobtail · 21/01/2021 22:39

I have a 15yo dd and if she told me she’d had an “argument” with her teacher I’d be telling her to write a letter of apology, not complaint. Being opinionated and questioning things is great, my dd is the same - but being respectful to her teacher whilst she is trying to do her job is more important in the context IMO.
If she stuck her hand up and politely questioned the wording of the text, fine - but if she was literally arguing I’d tell her that was wrong. She’s in a classroom not a courtroom.

queenMab99 · 21/01/2021 22:40

What would be the point of having all clear cut examples? The idea is to make them think about the difference between facts and opinions. It is an excellent example!

SarahAndQuack · 21/01/2021 22:40

What? No it isn't.

If you're that invested in dictionary definitions, I submit this one. It's a definition of 'table'. www.lexico.com/definition/table

No mention of four legs.

Do you not realise that it's much simpler to make a table by slapping one piece of material onto another (ie., a top on a leg), rather than making four legs?

I am absolutely boggled at what this has to do with the OP's question.

PoochiePlush · 21/01/2021 22:42

The statement is an opinion not fact and your daughter is too excited to understand that.

If you add "not" to it, then would you say it was fact or opinion?

Girls should be NOT able to work in any area they choose?

Well ok sure you abs your daughter would jump up and down and say it's opinion and a terribly dated misogynistic one at that.

So without the NOT.... it's still a statement. Yes....it should be fact. But sadly that isn't the case.

It's more common for white males to dominate certain professions. Yes we want to that to not be the case ". That's opinion.

Also the word "should" makes it quite clear that it is opinion not fact.

alliejay81 · 21/01/2021 22:44

In my opinion Grin it's a fact worded as an opinion. It can be easily rewritten as a fact. "With certain exemptions, sex is a protected characteristic due to the Equality Act of 2010. This means women can apply and be employed in all fields of work (unless exempt)" probably not perfect but you get the gist.

You can do the same with the sun one. "The sun should be 150 million miles from Earth."

Likewise the blood test is almost certainly a professional opinion, but I bet it's presented as fact. "Based on the three tests conducted there is a 99% probability that..."

It's a bad worksheet and shouldn't be used again, but teaching isn't a fun gig at the moment, so I do have sympathy!

titchy · 21/01/2021 22:45

@Adviceneededalways

I won’t be telling my daughters she’s wrong, she’s 14 with a strong mind which I love and would never try to put her down make her feel like her opinions were irrelevant. I will however use it a point of conversation and discuss it further with her and there have been some excellent suggestions of how to do so on here so thank you.
Why not - she is wrong. It's a science lesson, not a 'how to empower women and girls lesson'.

If you want to have the option of a science career open to her then suggest she gets an understanding of what fact is, and the importance of proof. Don't patronise her by not telling her she's wrong.

Taciturn · 21/01/2021 22:45

@PeigiSu

I would also argue that the blood tests don’t necessarily show the patient died of a bacterial infection, they show the patient had a bacterial infection. A blood sample alone doesn’t prove they didn’t have their head chopped off whilst they had the infection.
I was thinking exactly the same. This is an opinion, not a fact - autopsy, not blood tests, show cause of death.

I'm not sure why the teacher should wish to use such a demoralising example thought, whatever the ins and outs. Your daughter should write her letter, a bit of critical thinking doesn't do anyone any harm.

bluecheesefan · 21/01/2021 22:45

100 years ago it was believed that women could NOT do anything they wanted so v clearly it is an opinion

It wasn't just 'believed' to be true 100+ years ago, it was true and an undeniable fact. In many cases, they simply weren't allowed.

OP: I'd complain about this, yes - especially in the context of a science lesson. I'd particularly want to know whether there is the equivalent question for boys.

An0n0n0n · 21/01/2021 22:47

Good on your daughter. I think it's great she wants to raise it through a letter and thinking her thoughts and communicate them.

Hillwalker1 · 21/01/2021 22:48

I am an English teacher. I think it’s a good example for them because it is an opinion but one they will feel is a fact. It’s controversial and will get them debating the idea and also whether it’s an opinion. I think it’s good that she is cross- we need strong reactions and feelings from students.

TheyWentToSeaInASieve · 21/01/2021 22:48

You daughter needs a lesson on modal verbs;-)

Constanza21 · 21/01/2021 22:49

I think the clue is in the word 'should' - it's presented as a normative statement.

It looks a pretty rubbish worksheet for mid-teens - are they really thought to need cartoons?!

It's quite hard to learn new things and have your misconceptions challenged if you operate on the basis of your moral values and sense of conviction. When people we disagree with do that, we think of them as closed-minded, denialist and so on.

It sounds like her sense of identity has been threatened in some way and she's doubling down - entirely natural at that stage. But it's good to question yourself and your own preconceptions and biases, as well as those of 'authority'.

BackforGood · 21/01/2021 22:49

The world will be a better place when everyone is able to take being wrong, contradicted, or disagreed with and not be mortally offended by it. We seem to have lost the art of mature and reasoned critique.

This x 100%

I have a 15yo dd and if she told me she’d had an “argument” with her teacher I’d be telling her to write a letter of apology, not complaint. Being opinionated and questioning things is great, my dd is the same - but being respectful to her teacher whilst she is trying to do her job is more important in the context IMO

and this links in too.
Your dd needs to learn that holding strong beliefs is good. Making a respectful argument is good. Being able to accept you might not be 100% right all the time is really mature. Being able to understand she has actually demonstrated exactly the point the teacher was making - by believing her opinion is a fact - would also be really mature.
This could be a really great learning experience for your dd if you help her to see that.