To not know what to do about this

[imsoverytired83]

DD6 when fighting with DD4 (which happens constantly and about everything) keeps touching her (DD4s) privates. She will do it in front of me. It really upsets DD4 who then tells me and tells nursery who have confronted me about it (thankfully). I gave DD4 lots off praise for telling me about it.

Things I have done

• asked DD6 about her privates and checked nobody has done it to her - she says know and says that if someone did it to her then she would feel sad.
• explained to DD6 that privates are private and she shouldn’t touch our peoples and they shouldn’t touch hers
• bought DD6 a book about private parts and read it to her repeatedly
• ignored it and focused on DD4 being upset and comforting her
• I have removed a privilege because of it
• i have got cross about it and told off DD6 about it (end of my tether)

DD6 struggles emotionally and is having ELSA support at school and at home.

I am really worried about the impact on DD4 but i am running out of ideas and approaches here and its starting to get me down as nobody seems to be able to give me advice on it.

Please be gentle with me, i just want it to stop for both children.

I am not sure of the aibu, I am posting for traffic

What is she doing? Punching and kicking her there or something else?

I'm not sure if you are working from home but if not what about spending a couple of days entirely with the DDs - abandon all housework etc. Sit about with them so you can see what the dynamic is.
It's not nice for either of them to be in constant fights.

Is it something DD6 is picking up at school - I was a bit taken aback when I met DGS 6 last time (there are months between meetings) and he poked a finger at my crotch, looking cheeky and giggling. My DCs didn't do this as far as I know - so something the boys at school are doing I would think. Told him he could get into a lot of trouble doing that and there's been no repeat.

OP has mentioned a DH once in all this, way back.

What's his role here?

Why does he get only one tiny mention?

Theory of Occam's Razor is that it's the simplest explanation which is the correct one.

@ShiteningMcQueen
I would assume he isn't home all day and doesn't see it so often. OP will be the one to deal with it as she is the constant, consistent caregiver. As long as he backs her up, then there is no issue.

Maybe ask the school to get the ed psych in.

Neither the school or an Ed Psych is going to be successful in place of ineffective parenting.

@ShiteningMcQueen

OP has mentioned a DH once in all this, way back.

What's his role here?

Why does he get only one tiny mention?

Theory of Occam's Razor is that it's the simplest explanation which is the correct one.

I was having the same worrying thought.

@Ffsffsffsffsffs

Maybe ask the school to get the ed psych in.

Neither the school or an Ed Psych is going to be successful in place of ineffective parenting.

And by ineffective parenting I mean taking away a 6yo make up set, or stopping her having a biscuit as a consequence of repeatedly hurting her younger sister in an acknowledged inappropriate manner. If she ran out into the road she'd get a bollocking because its dangerous, as well as an explanation that included the words casualty, ambulance, death, funeral. Not just a biscuit taken off her.

Maybe worth contacting this service OP [https://www.stopitnow.org.uk/concerned-about-a-child-or-young-persons-sexual-behaviour/]

Hi OP. You've had a lot of advice. Draconian punishments are unlikely to help a child who doesn't know herself why she's doing it. I have a SEN child (an only though) and I think you need SEN-type advice even if your elder DD has nothing diagnosed. I would guess her emotional maturity is not much more than the 4yo so that's the level at which they're engaging. Ross Greene's methods are good. You asked about private help. My experience is that it is available but the only way to find appropriate help is to find parents who've experienced similar issues (there is a big taboo around discussing these behaviours).

This is really tough, I have 2 girls who argue etc but have never done this, I grew up with a brother and did occasionally give him a kick in the nads so used his privates more too hurt than anything and I did get a telling off usually sent to my room and allowed out for dinner had no iPads or anything to confiscate then. But you don’t say hurting you say touching? Which sounds odd to me

I have no real advice on that point but I work with children and they are complex little beings and do strange things at times that make us wonder why on Earth did you do that.

We had training called emotional resilience, they taught us how to speak to children that somehow gets into their little brains if you hit it right it’s magic, part of that is getting children to talk to each other and letting the other know how it feels when they hit them, drew on their picture etc

So you get your youngest next time (hope there won’t be to tell her like this) to speak to the eldest

DD4 - when you were fighting with me and touched me on my privates I didn’t like it because it made me feel .........(inserts how she feels) you then say how do you think we can resolve this DD6 because DD4 feels really.......she what she says and then I think that we resolve by you not doing that because it’s not appropriate because of A B C, you made DD4 feel....and what is the r right thing we need to do now? apologise and we must not do this again.

You then speak to DD6 separate using a calm but firm tone

When you touched your sister in the privates I felt really disappointed, it made mummy feel really sad we have spoken about this, I know that you are a sensible big girl and can make the a good choice because otherwise there is going to be consequences and I know you don’t really like because you wish that could have chocolate biscuits when you come in and you like xxxx now today you made a bad choice you’re loosing xxxx for xxx days until I can see you can make good choices

Any consequence she has needs to enforced and for more than a day.

I would be seeking support from the school as well because this is not something you can deal with alone, GP and anyone because of a child came to me on school and said that I’d file a report to my DSL because I’d be concerned, this had already come to light with your youngest

A few things I'd add: talk a lot about bodies and how we don't touch other people's bodies if they don't want us to. (Ideas about consent, but I wouldn't use the word consent). Then I'd actively model and refer to to this all day long, including 'do you want a hug' and 'DD6 you don't have the right to touch your sister if she doesn't want you to' if she tries to do the touching again. It at least lets DD4 know that everyone is aware it is wrong, and could have a drip drip effect on DD6 that this is not a behaviour that will be tolerated.

If she struggles with empathy I'd ask her to imagine being touched against her will, what would that be like for her. That is what she is doing to her sister. I might even model it by eg repeatedly touching her hand in an annoying way. Not if I thought she was well aware and doing it in a more sadistic way to express anger.

But the main interventions I'd be doing are protecting DD4 by keeping a very close eye on both, immediately removing DD6 (by lifting her up if need be) and putting her in another room, closing the door and leaving her there. I'd have explained in advance that this is what is going to happen if she does it again. Don't talk much, don't be upset. That would count as attention. Withdraw yourself immediately and go back to DD4, to comfort her and comment on what you are doing and why. In terms of a response with a behavioural approach, it needs to be immediate in time to the problem behaviour, related to the problem behaviour ('I'm putting you in another room because you tried to touch your sisters vulva to hurt her. No-one can touch another persons body without permission), and consistently implemented each time she (tries to) does it. Once you let her out the room I'd say she needs to sit or stand in your sight for the rest of the day. If you are working this should be boring and restrictive for her (don't chat with her, don't be warm and friendly). You can explain the (true) reason which is that it isn't safe for her to be unsupervised with her sister. When you can take a break from work or you are doing normal family things, then back to normal warm and friendly. Give her plenty of positive attention at those times, incl 1:1 and talking about what she is finding frustrating and making her feel cross.

I do think you need to be very clear and use behavioural interventions, they are usually much more effective than talking about things, at any age. Good luck.

I don’t think the OP’s coming back to this one - she’s decided that taking away the “privilege” of a chocolate biscuit is a good start.

Which tells me all I need to know about why this is happening constantly, and that it will probably continue.

At least nursery are aware, hopefully the 4 y/o will keep telling them it’s still happening, and they will escalate it to the appropriate service or organisation so that the both children get some professional help.

Part of the problem with children being sent to their rooms is that they have lots in their to amuse themselves. On the rare occasion I was sent to my room I only had books and a few toys. So these were removed and I was devastated. Could you remove something/everything she cares about for a relatively long period of time? She needs to associate doing it with bad things happening to her.

I would take your youngest to the park, get a hot chocolate and leave her at home with your DH. Or if she is closer to your DH the other way around. If she is good then she goes the next time.

Fortunately she is still young. Would Time for you help?

@BornIn78 You couldn’t be more wrong.

DH works out of the house a majority of the time at the moment. I am juggling working with schooling. DH wants to change it as much as i do.

Thank you everyone for the time you have invested in this thread and the advice you have given me- some of it i wont be taking and others i will be considering. I have decided to seek professional advice and now I wont be back because i will be focusing on my DDs rather than a forum where a lot of posters just want to have a go, make accusations and assumptions when i am clearly asking for help.

Those of you who have had a swipe at my parenting- I obviously came on here because I realise that i needed help and advice and i realise where i am at the moment isnt good enough for my dds. If I didn’t care or i thought i was doing enough then why the hell would i have sought advice on what to do next?

Thank you again to those of you who have tried to be helpful.

Professional advice is absolutely 100% the right thing to do. Great decision.

@BornIn78

I don’t think the OP’s coming back to this one - she’s decided that taking away the “privilege” of a chocolate biscuit is a good start.

Which tells me all I need to know about why this is happening constantly, and that it will probably continue.

At least nursery are aware, hopefully the 4 y/o will keep telling them it’s still happening, and they will escalate it to the appropriate service or organisation so that the both children get some professional help.

Indeed.

Do you think this might be why DD4 wouldn't sleep in her own bed in Dec?

I'd be worried DD6 was acting inappropriately at night too.

I think you need to get them both seem by someone professional.

I think this is a typical attention grabbing ploy. The usual advice is to give DD6 more one to one attention from you and DH and divert her away from annoying her sister to get attention. Supervise them more, play with them more and hopefully it will work. Maybe a reward system for playing nicely? A treat if they are playing well to work towards.

The kid is touching another child’s private parts and solution is to play with her? Have I got that right?

She needs a bollocking not playtime. The passiveness in this thread is utterly infuriating & honestly triggering me. I wish you all the best OP but it’s going to take more than confiscating a makeup palette & pizza night to overcome this one. Actual discipline & serious consequences are needed here.

This is an extremely serious Situation & if your youngest feels powerless & traumatised this could have a lifetime impact on her & also put a rift in your whole family - these will be the kind of sisters who grow up to hate each other. Firm action needs to be taken, to scare/shame the 6 year old into not doing this again.

Gutful your posts are disgusting and that would be abuse.

OP I seriously hope you have separated them at night time and that they are not sharing a bedroom.

@gutful your posts are advocating child abuse. OP needs to see a professional to deal with this deeply, deeply worrying behaviour and protect her other child. Abusing the child who is acting out is not the answer.