To not know what to do about this

[imsoverytired83]

DD6 when fighting with DD4 (which happens constantly and about everything) keeps touching her (DD4s) privates. She will do it in front of me. It really upsets DD4 who then tells me and tells nursery who have confronted me about it (thankfully). I gave DD4 lots off praise for telling me about it.

Things I have done

• asked DD6 about her privates and checked nobody has done it to her - she says know and says that if someone did it to her then she would feel sad.
• explained to DD6 that privates are private and she shouldn’t touch our peoples and they shouldn’t touch hers
• bought DD6 a book about private parts and read it to her repeatedly
• ignored it and focused on DD4 being upset and comforting her
• I have removed a privilege because of it
• i have got cross about it and told off DD6 about it (end of my tether)

DD6 struggles emotionally and is having ELSA support at school and at home.

I am really worried about the impact on DD4 but i am running out of ideas and approaches here and its starting to get me down as nobody seems to be able to give me advice on it.

Please be gentle with me, i just want it to stop for both children.

I am not sure of the aibu, I am posting for traffic

What is DD4 doing that irritates DD6 so much?
Why does this matter?
Reminds me of 'What did she do to wind him up' scenario in DV
The 6 year old is showing concerning signs of sexually abusive behaviour
The 4 year old is not being protected from harm
The 6 year old is ( possible) not being protected from harm either
OP needs to act now and establish where this has come from

You’ve had lots of advice about punishments or consequences or whatever you want to call them.
Clearly you know you need to do something and these aren’t working to stop the behaviour.
Try reading Ross Green (website ‘livesinthebalance’) for a different perspective on how to address unwanted behaviour.

What is DD4 doing that irritates DD6 so much?
Why does this matter?

Because if you know the trigger, you can teach DD6 how to react differently to that trigger. You can also potentially spot that the behaviour might be about to occur before it happens, and so prevent it.
I'm not blaming the four year old, and I don't understand why that was the first thing you thought.

What is DD4 doing that irritates DD6 so much? Can she articulate it?
It sounds like there's jealousy/resentment for DD4 anyway, which will also need addressing, but what is the trigger for that internal resentment being turned into the outward behaviour?

I do think this is important.

I suffered my whole life at the hands of my elder sister.

Mum and dad didn't do enough to figure it out as kids. The effect has been profound on me. Yeeears of counselling later (my parents and I) learned my sister simply never got over me being born. Never dealt with it. Everything I did annoyed her,she resented me..still does.

My parents thought it was 'normal sibling rivalry' ..it was sibling abuse and people dont take this seriously enough.

I dont mean this is how it will be for your girls but please try to get to the bottom of it and work on their relationship with each other

She's 6, she's still a baby! I can only say that now mine are teenagers (well, youngest is 11 going on 15) because at the time they seemed so grown up at 6. It's not "ok" but she needs guidance and support to channel her anger appropriately.

I think that all emotion has to be taken out of this situation. Private parts are emotive for us as adults because we know the significance of them, but it's no different from hitting anywhere else.

What I would do:

1. Discuss the situation with your DD1 when she is calm. Look at some PANTS material together. Tell her that it is never ok to touch people in their 'pants' area unless they want you to.

1. Discuss the consequence (not punishment) for touching DD2 in the pants area. Can't do fun stuff, can't be together, etc.

1. Tell DD1 and DD2 that if they argue, there will be consequences.

1. Monitor their behaviour and at the first sign of an argument, split them up, divert.

1. If DD1 tries to hurt DD2, physically block it. Follow through with consequence - separate, engage DD2 in an activity. Don't overly console DD2 - this is a boring situation and nobody has fun in it.

You'll have to be really consistent and you may well find that a different behaviour emerges as this one fades.

The key is that you're not 'bothered' by the behaviour. It's no different to pushing, scratching, verbal insults, etc., It's just boring 'silliness' which is stopping you all from having fun.

I really have to disagree with @Lougle it’s very different to normal hitting/pinching/etc. She’s specifically targeting that area. Makes it much more serious. Plus I would be concerned that there’s a reason why. If a kid pinches another kid, generally it’s just on the closest body part within reach (arm, cheek, leg).

The absolute last thing she needs to think is that this isn’t a big deal, or on the same level as a hit or a punch. Because she will pull it out when she has an argument in a playground, or when she’s at a friend’s house and feels grumpy. And this will become a massive deal for the whole family.

I really really think this needs professional intervention. It’s not ok to allow her to mix with other children when there is a high risk of her sexually abusing them when upset. This needs to not be a part of her arsenal when angry, it needs to not be in the same category as a hit/punch. Because you can get a child to cut out 90% of frustration and arguments, but you are still risking her doing this to other children.

@Summersun2020

I really have to disagree with *@Lougle* it’s very different to normal hitting/pinching/etc. She’s specifically targeting that area. Makes it much more serious. Plus I would be concerned that there’s a reason why. If a kid pinches another kid, generally it’s just on the closest body part within reach (arm, cheek, leg).

But she's getting a shed load of attention for it! Of course she will. If I got a mild "Lougle, that's not kind" for a small shove and a massive rant for touching in a private area, then what am I going to do?

DD1 (15) has special needs. She absolutely knows that DD2 (13, ASD) hates her using a certain abbreviation of her name. So what does DD1 do when DD2 has irritated her? She calls her the name in a sing-song voice, waits until she explodes with fury, then dobs on her, knowing that we can't ignore physical violence.

Children don't have "good attention, bad attention" distinctions. They just see "attention". It's a power play.

If the DD1 got that reaction from flicking her sister's arm, that's what she would do.

You say that your DD6 touches your DD4 in front of you.

So. Let’s just rephrase this, when your older child sexually abuses your younger, more vulnerable child in front of you what EXACTLY is your reaction? And how exactly have you allowed this to happen more than once?

You need to physically intervene and get your younger child to safety. Get her the hell away from her sister in that moment and never leave her alone with her.

Do they share a bedroom?

Mumsnet isn’t going to cut it here I’m afraid. It’s not biting or spitting. It’s sexual abuse.

Call your GP and NSPCC immediately.

To be sexual abuse it has to have a sexual intent. This child is 6 years old.

@ProudAuntie76

You say that your DD6 touches your DD4 in front of you.

So. Let’s just rephrase this, when your older child sexually abuses your younger, more vulnerable child in front of you what EXACTLY is your reaction? And how exactly have you allowed this to happen more than once?

You need to physically intervene and get your younger child to safety. Get her the hell away from her sister in that moment and never leave her alone with her.

Do they share a bedroom?

Mumsnet isn’t going to cut it here I’m afraid. It’s not biting or spitting. It’s sexual abuse.

Call your GP and NSPCC immediately.

Please ignore this post OP. It's not helpful or true.

@Lougle

To be sexual abuse it has to have a sexual intent. This child is 6 years old.

I agree with this. It’s very serious and needs to be treated as such but there’s no need to be hysterical

My first reaction is that she'd get a bloody severe telling off and sent to her room and can only come down when you and DD4 have calmed down and she apologises.

But if you think she's doing it for the attention could you simply pick the younger one up and leave the room and close the door and go comfort DD4 while ignoring DD6.

You cant be leaving them unattended though, you're allowing your younger daughter to be abused.

Maybe do a day of making DD6 go everywhere with you after the event, so you go the toilet she has to stand quietly with her hand through the door. You're making dinner in the kitchen, she has to stand quietly with her hands against the walls. No chatting or quality time, just boring. So she learns that every time she does it, she doesn't get attention but then isn't trusted and her day is ruined because she has to keep getting up and waiting for you to do other things. But then I worry about the "tell a kid they're bad and they'll be bad" thing.

@Lougle

To be sexual abuse it has to have a sexual intent. This child is 6 years old.

But it is sibling abuse - older dd is intentionally targeting younger dd and op is being ineffective at dealing with it.

OP is adament that older dd knows the importance of not touching, or being touched there, yet older dd continues to do so.

If an unknown dc did this to mine at school, or soft play, I'd be raising the roof. This is intentional hurt/assault/however you want to phrase it, in a place that older dd knows is forbidden. We don't poke fingers in eyes because it is terrifically dangerous, with long lasting consequences - would it be OK if dd was continually poking her sisters eyes? No. Then it is no different.

Doing it once would be a problem. Twice forgivable, kids forget and get carried away. Continued behaviour needs consequences.

I would raise it with school, as they may be able to help and they need to know she’s doing this to safeguard the other kids in her class.

Today 18:16 Ffsffsffsffsffs
"But it is sibling abuse - older dd is intentionally targeting younger dd and op is being ineffective at dealing with it."

We don't know that at all. Two young siblings are fighting and one of them is using an inappropriate fighting tactic. That's as much as we know from the information given.

All the rest of it, sexual abuse, targeting, etc., is adults putting very grown up motives behind a physical response.

@Paapa

What is DD4 doing that irritates DD6 so much? Can she articulate it? It sounds like there's jealousy/resentment for DD4 anyway, which will also need addressing, but what is the trigger for that internal resentment being turned into the outward behaviour?

Are you a natural victim blamer or did you have to take a course?

The problem is the child using this behaviour, not her being upset with her sister. Even if you solve 100% of her issues with her sister, she will still do this behaviour against others! Or in stressful situations!

And because the behaviour is so serious, this can’t simply be a case of stopping it 80% of the time. Childhood sexual abuse is horrible and not ok and this needs to be a 100% not happening again situation.

I think any attempt to just reduce her stresses and acting out fails to address the issue. Because it leaves this as an action to fall back on when stressed. Which is why this situation needs professional help, immediately.

It’s fair enough to say the older child has no “sexual intent” but it IS abuse and I think for the younger child, as she gets older she’s bound to be affected by this. She is a victim and she should be protected. I’d agree with the sentiment that if it happened in school or softplay etc there’d be a very big reaction and it would very much be seen as a perpetrator/victim dynamic whether there is sexual intent or not (and there can’t be intent).

It’s very, very wrong. It’s worrying that the older child isn’t stopping despite education and being told not to do it. I really think posters shouldn’t be minimising the younger child here. It’s horrible what she’s going through. I don’t think it was hysterical of pp to suggest separate bedrooms and eliminating time alone together. I think it’s sensible.

A think a professional’s opinion would be best here. It certainly needs careful handling and the OP needs a supportive team around her to best help both kids.

@Onjnmoeiejducwoapy

The problem is the child using this behaviour, not her being upset with her sister. Even if you solve 100% of her issues with her sister, she will still do this behaviour against others! Or in stressful situations!

And because the behaviour is so serious, this can’t simply be a case of stopping it 80% of the time. Childhood sexual abuse is horrible and not ok and this needs to be a 100% not happening again situation.

I think any attempt to just reduce her stresses and acting out fails to address the issue. Because it leaves this as an action to fall back on when stressed. Which is why this situation needs professional help, immediately.

You have no evidence of this DD2 could be viscious to her sisters (and them vice versa) when she was younger, but she wouldn't have done anything like that to a child at school.

You can't decide that she is going to a perpetrator of sexual violence towards her peers because she's behaving badly at home. The OP hasn't even elaborated about what 'touching her privates' means (and nor should she) so you can't make any judgement about the intent behind the action.

"It’s fair enough to say the older child has no “sexual intent” but it IS abuse and I think for the younger child, as she gets older she’s bound to be affected by this."

How can you say there is abuse so confidently? If they are fighting, they are both doing something unkind to the other. How has the younger DD been downgraded to innocent bystander, victimised and abused by the older child?

OP, I would get this thread pulled and talk to the school. You're just getting a whole load of hysterical projection here.

Sexual assault is sexual assault regardless of the intention, it's an assault on the sex organs which is what is happening here. The perpetrator doesn't have to be 'getting off' on it for it not be considered sexual assault.

www.google.com/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/abuse

By its very definition, it’s abuse. The same way repeated hitting, spitting, kicking etc is abuse. The same way repeated cruel words and teasing is abuse.

The older dd is repeatedly doing something harmful to the younger dd, to the point the younger child is upset, confiding in nursery staff etc. It’s right there in the OP.

I’m not being hysterical. It’s minimising to call it unkind behaviour when it’s repeated unwanted touching of the genitals by one bigger, older child to one two years younger and smaller.

It isn't minimising to point out that the OP says it happens when they are fighting and that the child in question is only 6 herself.

Sexual abuse is a continuation of assaults, having your sex organs repetitively touched surmounts to sexual abuse even if the intention or reason for doing this is because the victim 'annoys you'. The child is six and of course doesn't have the capacity to fully understand this but posters saying sexual abuse/assault has to have sexual intention is wrong. The term sexual does have more than one meaning and I think people incorrectly associate it to intercourse/acts of that nature.