To not know what to do about this

[imsoverytired83]

DD6 when fighting with DD4 (which happens constantly and about everything) keeps touching her (DD4s) privates. She will do it in front of me. It really upsets DD4 who then tells me and tells nursery who have confronted me about it (thankfully). I gave DD4 lots off praise for telling me about it.

Things I have done

• asked DD6 about her privates and checked nobody has done it to her - she says know and says that if someone did it to her then she would feel sad.
• explained to DD6 that privates are private and she shouldn’t touch our peoples and they shouldn’t touch hers
• bought DD6 a book about private parts and read it to her repeatedly
• ignored it and focused on DD4 being upset and comforting her
• I have removed a privilege because of it
• i have got cross about it and told off DD6 about it (end of my tether)

DD6 struggles emotionally and is having ELSA support at school and at home.

I am really worried about the impact on DD4 but i am running out of ideas and approaches here and its starting to get me down as nobody seems to be able to give me advice on it.

Please be gentle with me, i just want it to stop for both children.

I am not sure of the aibu, I am posting for traffic

It isn't minimising to point out that the OP says it happens when they are fighting and that the child in question is only 6 herself.

The OP suggests the older child is fighting with the younger child.

Do you honestly think this is a normal response to a 6 year old finding their younger sibling “annoying”. And the child in question doesn’t articulate WHAT the younger child is doing to annoy them. Some children simply don’t like having a younger sibling. But this is not a usual or normal response to sibling rivalry.

I had to investigate peer on peer abuse in primary school as part of my job when I worked with young children. This would absolutely not be something we’d be allowed or advised to “just let go” because they are “fighting” or sibling rivalry. There is real cause for concern. And it’s pretty rare. In nearly 20 years, I only had to make referrals for something like this with young children 4 times, thankfully.

Children get removed for this. I'm not saying this to scare you, but sibling abuse IS a thing, it is real, it is dangerous. Parents reaction determines which child is removed - abused or the abuser. Them being 2 girls does not change that.

Obviously removal is not the first thing that will happen, but it is a real possibility if you cannot either keep DD4 safe or stop DD6 from doing it.

I think you need to sit DD6 down and explain that what she is doing is very, very serious. You want to help her stop doing it, but to do that you need to understand why she does it, what annoys her so much about her sister. You also need to prevent them from getting to the point it happens - keep them separate, at all times if you must.

Do they have separate bedrooms?

@Lougle

To be sexual abuse it has to have a sexual intent. This child is 6 years old.

You absolutely are minimising this. The older kid might not understand what she’s doing, but it absolutely is sexual abuse of the younger. The younger is being sexually abused. Regardless of whether an adult, a person with special needs who doesn’t undertake their actions, or a child doing it from ignorance, the child is still being abused and this needs to be treated as a big deal.

And actually now just thinking about it more,
when I worked in SEN settings we had two or three children who didn’t have capacity to understand why what they were doing was so awful but did very deliberately do it as a way of acting out (and I’m not going to go into detail about the acts they did but it was in front of other children but never physical contact with them), we calmly physically removed that child from the room without creating a scene. We’d then explain in a very calm way, in a way they understood why the behaviour was unacceptable. So that could be a social story for example. Depending on the child and how much they understood and how deliberate the act was (I.e intentionally wanted to upset another child, intentionally wanted to shock or upset teacher etc) they might have a privilege removed or, more likely they would be encouraged to not do that and, if so they would be rewarded with something they really enjoyed such as sensory play.

Where children in the same settings had a history of violence to other children, we would physically intervene and put ourselves in between the violent child and the other child. If throwing chairs around for example, we’d get all of the other kids out.

So, seek professional advice ASAP. BUT in the meantime, calmly remove older DD from the room, be prepared to get in between them and physically shield younger child, and suggest that the younger child can get herself to a safer place too. Just as temporary measures.

We would find that children who would do very extreme things did often do it to get a response of shock and “attention” so that was why we often had to take a very unemotional response. It was a case of immediately take the child out of the room by the hand without saying a word, sit them down in another room then go through the social story, sanction/reward etc. It’s easier when it’s not your own child but often we’d work with families to explain the process we used, train them in the techniques we used and made sure that we were all singing from the same hymn sheet so to speak.

@Winterwoollies
Read my post properly then try again.
Identifying a trigger is not attributing blame. It's about being able to spot what's about to happen and so prevent it, and teaching how to react to the trigger appropriately - as I've already explained.

In addition to the many sensible posts here, I also would keep her right beside you all the time (your older DD this is). "You've shown me you can't manage your feelings so you need to stay right beside me this afternoon" and then literally she has to do what you do, go where you go, and of course make it as boring as you can. It is serious, and it needs to stop. It is going to take a lot of consistent work from you to get there though.

I'd go straight to the "Ok, beside me" as soon as an argument starts, I wouldn't wait for it to get physical. By being so closely focused on what's happening, it should make it easier for you to spot any patterns or triggers too. Is it at the same time of day, is it after coming home, or at bedtime etc? Is it worse when you're tired or trying to get something done? Spotting patterns will give you ways to find solutions.

I would also try a visual timetable so they both have security about what's happening every day. I would make sure they each have a slot where they are doing something just with you (15 mins each is fine) and the other is occupied with something else, tablet if necessary. Knowing they are going to get your undivided attention can be very settling.

Re sexual abuse - I think that it would be best to deal with DD4 as if she's being sexually abused (because that is her experience) but to not deal with DD6 as if she's a sexual abuser. As a pp said, she's realised that this is the pretty much worst thing she can do to her sister, and because she's got a major issue with her, that's why she does it.

[quote Paapa]@Winterwoollies
Read my post properly then try again.
Identifying a trigger is not attributing blame. It's about being able to spot what's about to happen and so prevent it, and teaching how to react to the trigger appropriately - as I've already explained.[/quote]
I did. So, are you a natural victim blamer or did you have to take a course?

Unless I’ve missed something, OP has made no mention of the 4yo doing anything consistently to ‘trigger’ the action. With that in mind, I wouldn’t want to teach my daughter that she has to change her behaviour so as not to be physical hurt in her private areas. I’d rather teach the other one, seriously and leaving no questions, that what she is doing very, very wrong.

I think that it would be best to deal with DD4 as if she's being sexually abused (because that is her experience) but to not deal with DD6 as if she's a sexual abuser.

Absolutely spot on.

100% agree with @Paapa and @NameChange84 on that

I did. So, are you a natural victim blamer or did you have to take a course?

Unless I’ve missed something, OP has made no mention of the 4yo doing anything consistently to ‘trigger’ the action. With that in mind, I wouldn’t want to teach my daughter that she has to change her behaviour so as not to be physical hurt in her private areas. I’d rather teach the other one, seriously and leaving no questions, that what she is doing very, very wrong.

@Winterwoollies*
OMG, you've just done the exact same thing again!

I'm not talking about getting DD4 to change her behaviour.....

I'm talking about learning what sets DD6 off, and teaching her how to respond differently. To be able to spot when DD6 might get triggered into doing it, and getting in there before she does to stop it happening.

Don't insult people just because you've not understood something!

Remove her favourite toy and don't give her it back at all until she has learnt you mean business,

I'm talking about learning what sets DD6 off, and teaching her how to respond differently. To be able to spot when DD6 might get triggered into doing it, and getting in there before she does to stop it happening.

But that 100% is asking the younger daughter to have to change her behaviour to keep herself safe. A lesson a 4 year old should definitely not be learning!

But that 100% is asking the younger daughter to have to change her behaviour to keep herself safe. A lesson a 4 year old should definitely not be learning!

I read the advise as being to get the OLDER daughter to recognise HER triggers to learn how to manager her OWN response.

Nothing to do with the four year old changing her behaviour
.

Some of you people sound absolutely unhinged. This child is SIX she's not a bloody predator for goodness sake. Yes the four year old should absolutely be protected from this but there's some serious projection going on here.

OP someone up thread mentioned Ross Greene, I would also suggest having a look at his methods and ignore the posters who want to lock your six year old up for "abuse"

I read the advise as being to get the OLDER daughter to recognise HER triggers to learn how to manager her OWN response.

Nothing to do with the four year old changing her behaviour

THANK. YOU.
I was about to give up.

@Paapa

I read the advise as being to get the OLDER daughter to recognise HER triggers to learn how to manager her OWN response.

Nothing to do with the four year old changing her behaviour

THANK. YOU.
I was about to give up.

Ok I get what you are saying now, but your post below actually read like you were saying identify the younger daughter' behaviour that triggers it and then potentially spot that behaviour and prevent it rather than stopping the older daughter's behaviour/reaction - it was just a bit confusingly written but apologies for misunderstanding!

Because if you know the trigger, you can teach DD6 how to react differently to that trigger. You can also potentially spot that the behaviour might be about to occur before it happens, and so prevent it.

Of course the OP is minimising this. This is apparent in her response that she will escalate the "punishment " feom removal of a make up kit (why does a 6 year old even have one) to the removal of a chocolate biscuit.

There has been some good advice regarding the sibling abuse her DD4 is suffering at the hands of her older sibling which I doubt the OP will see let alone follow as she is in denial about how serious this potentially is.

Because if you know the trigger, you can teach DD6 how to react differently to that trigger.

I really don't understand how you could have misinterpreted this as telling DD4 to change her behaviour, but I appreciate the apology anyway.

I cant believe the minimising going on here.

Theres being softly softly wokey new age and then there's enabling.

Theres a time for empathy and examining feelings and engaging in thoughtful support and theres a time where its perfectly normal to say - do not fucking fo that or there will be hardline consequences because you KNOW this is wrong

Hi OP. I know you've been given a lot of advice already and are probably feeling overwhelmed by it all. I only have one suggestion - children's social care will have a 'concerning behaviour pathway' which this would fall under. They would be able to put additional support in place to help you manage the behaviour with evidence based interventions. They will be able to help you access assessments to understand what might be happening for DD6 to make her behave like this, and will help with a referral to camhs if required.
Hope you get somewhere with all of this!

Could your eldest daughter be craving your attention? Sometimes negative attention is just as rewarding to some children as positive attention.

She has maybe by accident hit upon an action that get a huge reaction from you and lots of attention. So she keeps on repeating it.

Before it happens again. I would explain quietly and Undramatically that her actions are very wrong and if she does it again she will have to sit alone at the kitchen table, or on the stairs whilst you snd your younger daughter have time alone together in a different part of the room.

Explain that if she upsets her younger sister in this way that you will have to spend time alone with her younger sister. To help her get over the upset that she has caused.

On the other hand explain if the bad behaviour is not repeated then you will have this time to spend with your older daughter doing something which is age appropriate to her but not for the younger child. Eg cutting out and dressing paper dolls, or making repeated patterns with felt tips eg three red blobs, one blue, two yellow, three red what’s next? Something a 4 year old might struggle with but which a six year old would enjoy.

So perhaps the younger child watches her favourite tv programme whilst you and your eldest daughter do an activity together.

The younger child must not feel left out. It will take careful managing. Do you have another adult who could help entertain the younger child for a short time or sit with her whilst she watches the TV?

Aim to ignore bad behaviour, while keeping the youngest child safe, but reward good behaviour with lots of attention.

I don’t know what the background to this behaviour is. My approach would only work if the issues involved are caused by your eldest child craving your attention.
If the behaviour continues even though she gets lots of positive attention from you then you must seek specialist help.

It is a very trying situation for you.
I do hope that you are able to resolve the situation.

@imsoverytired83

I haven’t read all the replies, but the advice to respond by giving dd4 loads and loads of attention is really poor.

Think about it. If DD6 is doing it for attention... is ignoring her and lavishing her sister with attention going to make her want leas attention, or more?

It is going to make her crave attention!! And it will also make her resent her little sister and be more keen to upset her.

If the hypothesis is that she is doing it for attention, then you need to:

-Give her as much positive attention as possible, to meet this need.

• Give her lots of (supervised) opportunities to play together with her little sister and set up the play activities really carefully to make sure they go well. Praise both the girls for getting on well, especially DD6. You want her to associate being kind to DD4 with positive attention from mum.

• The next time the touching happens, do not lose your shit and bollock her (as pp have said- any attention is good attention for a child, even a bollocking). A swift, cool-headed, unemotional and immediate consequence such as time out in another room is fine.

They posters who are saying “that’s not enough punishment” are not using psychology. This isn’t about finding a punishment “strong enough” to stop her from doing it. It’s about fonding something that will work. Children who misbehave for emotional reasons do so because they are miserable about something. Punishment makes children more miserable. Being more miserable will make the behaviour worse, not better.

Maybe ask the school to get the ed psych in.

I have children the same age. I would be very angry if either did this to each other. Your 4 year old needs protecting. You’ve said it yourself that it might happen again. Don’t wait! Warn her, be around and completely overreact to stop this happening!

Have you read the book siblings without rivalry?

It may help. I think there is a bigger issue that is causing the behaviour. Tackling the rivalry may help stop the unwanted behaviour.

You sound like your being reactive rather than preventative because of the cycle of competition for you that's going on.