To not know what to do about this

[imsoverytired83]

DD6 when fighting with DD4 (which happens constantly and about everything) keeps touching her (DD4s) privates. She will do it in front of me. It really upsets DD4 who then tells me and tells nursery who have confronted me about it (thankfully). I gave DD4 lots off praise for telling me about it.

Things I have done

• asked DD6 about her privates and checked nobody has done it to her - she says know and says that if someone did it to her then she would feel sad.
• explained to DD6 that privates are private and she shouldn’t touch our peoples and they shouldn’t touch hers
• bought DD6 a book about private parts and read it to her repeatedly
• ignored it and focused on DD4 being upset and comforting her
• I have removed a privilege because of it
• i have got cross about it and told off DD6 about it (end of my tether)

DD6 struggles emotionally and is having ELSA support at school and at home.

I am really worried about the impact on DD4 but i am running out of ideas and approaches here and its starting to get me down as nobody seems to be able to give me advice on it.

Please be gentle with me, i just want it to stop for both children.

I am not sure of the aibu, I am posting for traffic

I agree with taking dd4 out of the room when it happens and giving no attention to dd6. I’m not sure going ballistic at her is the answer here, there is no overnight fix it is going to take some thinking about the psychology behind it. She is clearly doing it to get your attention and annoy her dd4 (maybe jealousy). I would make sure you are giving dd6 lots of positive attention and try to spend some time one on one with her. My dd8 does something similar to this in that she sticks her hands in ds12’s face when he’s annoying her. I think it’s just something she did when they were bickering and because he expressed extreme annoyance at it she now does it whenever he’s annoying her to get a rise out of him - it’s like a power play.
But agree not to leave them alone if possible.

Hmm, I think there are a few things here.

1. you need to punish dd1, but also remove attention. Make it clear what the punishment will be. I would say that she has to go and play in her room on her own for the rest of the afternoon etc. The reason given is that you cannot trust her round dd2, so she needs to play away form her.

This also has the effect that it removes all attention form dd1. Bollockings etc give her attention, which, while negative, gets everything focussed on her. So, as soon as she does it. One line - you have touched dd2s privates, that means you need to play somewhere else as I can't trust you round her - go to your room.

1. With dd2, I would be careful. There is a delicate balance between comforting her and making sure she knows she can tell you etc and making such a big thing of it that she is more traumatised that she needs to be if you see what I mean. So, I would check she is OK, and then try a go and do something nice - game or whatever.

It is a really difficult area. Some amount of sexual touching and exploration is actually normal between small children. But as dd2 is not happy this does not fall into that category. I wonder if a book about bodies and growth would also be appropriate her. I wonder if dd1 is curious too?

and then when you are ready and dd1 is allowed back in, make sure she gets some great positive attention.

I would also agree with people who say teach her how to express anger. Do some role play - when you are cross what could you do?

I work with kids and we teach them that anger expresses itself through mouth (shouting) hands (hitting) and feet (kicking) So help the anger come out safely - run up and down stairs, sing loudly, thump a pillow. Some kids have an anger teddy who takes all the punches!

The fact that she still needs ELSA support suggests that her behaviour isn't where it should be.
Maybe talk to your ELSA about this.

You say you make a fuss of dd2 when trouble. Children are very good at reversing situations even if you supervise all the time, one can goad the other in a split second (as I'm sure you know). Often one is always blamed, the other claiming victim status.

I think dd1 does this because it works, simple as that, it is the worst she can think of doing, when she is at the end of her tether.

You have asked if either of them have been touched and is confident this is not the case. Turning this around i think you should try giving mostly positive attention. Do things with them together with you in the middle, let them have times during the day where they do different things away from each other, perhaps giving 'big girl' chores/entertainment for dd1. If you really need to, be swift and remove 'the offender' immediately, no telling off, no attention, for either party.

What your dds are probably doing is fighting for your attention (negative is better than no attention, but soon spirals to feeling unloved) they should have your positive attention equally. Try not to give attention as a form of punishment of the other (which it will feel like).

Hope this isn't just a lot of blapper, worth a try, but it will take time to reverse .

I think you need to get external help ASAP with this, sell stuff if necessary for private. Because if this is now her go to way of dealing with an issue with another child, will do it in a school or a playground some day. There is a high chance your daughter may not be the only victim. You need to cut this off right away—I don’t think she should be playing with her sister or hanging out with other kids until this is sorted.

I think it would def be worth talking to your GP about this issue. They can make a decision whether it meets the threshold for a CAMS referral and if not they can advise you on how you get a referral to see a child psychologist privately. I think I would do that here because this is atypical behaviour and it does need addressing quickly and effectively. You need some support and advice from a professional - none of us really know how you should deal with this one but it does need dealing with and you need professional help to do it I think.

Sorry, not read all answers, and no real advice I'm afraid, but the thing that sticks out for me is her doing it because her sister "...is annoying". I'm trying to get my head around how she would have thought about doing that as a punishment IYSWIM?

It sounds as though you’ve instilled the pants rule firmly with your girls (great) but when your DD6 wants a reaction/attention from you both she’s using that in her favour. I’d dial back the reaction you give her - perhaps just removing yourself and DD4 from the room after an incident and saying you can’t play when she’s doing that. Act bored and impassive. Always tell your DD4 that it’s great that she tells you when DD6 breaks the pants rule, but maybe also dial back your comforting of her. This could very quickly become a great field for sibling rivalry to be played out, rather than it traumatising her at this stage. It sounds like a 6 year old’s game of wind mummy and sister up, and unfortunately she’s found something that gets quite a response from you both.

Your first priority needs to be making sure it happens again. You need to take dd1 with you when you go to the toilet or go and get something from another room. Everywhere you go she must go too as she can't be trusted.

You don't need to focus on punishments or what you can say or do if it happens again as you need to make sure it doesn't! Would you put yourself in a situation repeatedly where someone had touched your private parts against your will?

I agree with the poster who says it's telling that your dd is concerned that you might tell her teacher but not concerned about you and is repeating the behaviour.

I would phone the NSPCC for advice too. The nursery will be following this up too of course. https://safeguarding.network/safeguarding-resources/peer-peer-abuse/

How often is this happening?

Poor dd2 she obviously is upset over this and it’s affecting her for her to tell her teacher.

I know you probably feel like you are doing the best you can especially during these hard times but I’m afraid you really need to come down hard
On her. No screen time for a week, no treats/sweets for a week. When she does it she is placed in time out for a period of time not allowed to play in her room while in timeout but actually sit on a chair with nothing to do. Made to apologise to her sister after. This needs to be done every time and consistently the same process each time.

If this doesn’t work then you may need to find extra support from outside.

@Onjnmoeiejducwoapy

I think you need to get external help ASAP with this, sell stuff if necessary for private. Because if this is now her go to way of dealing with an issue with another child, will do it in a school or a playground some day. There is a high chance your daughter may not be the only victim. You need to cut this off right away—I don’t think she should be playing with her sister or hanging out with other kids until this is sorted.

Very much agree with this

I agree with getting external help for your eldest daughter. I'm not slamming your parenting but you don't seem to have the resources to deal with this yourself or this inappropriate behaviour would have been stopped by now. Agree with a pp, your eldest daughter may end up doing this to another child and that could have very serious ramifications.

Two kids that close in age is hard.
You need to find away for them to be happy in each other's company, while giving both some 121 time with you and dh.

I think you've inadvertently turned it into a "thing", especially since you've used a variety of methods to try to stop it. She's pushing the boundaries now as she doesn't really know where the line is.

Intensely supervise for a couple of weeks and stop it before it happens. Block her, tell her she can't touch people's private parts and move her away calmly. Every time. It will be a pain but if you keep cool and do the same thing over and over consistently, she will stop.

Six is still very young. Taking stuff away from her or "giving her a bollocking" won't work and will damage your relationship in the long run.

Intensely supervise for a couple of weeks and stop it before it happens. Block her, tell her she can't touch people's private parts and move her away calmly. Every time. It will be a pain but if you keep cool and do the same thing over and over consistently, she will stop.

Agree with this. You've given it too much allure. Don't overreact to it. Don't make any fuss, no fussing over your four year old. Just calmly and consistently block it. It might take supervising them all day every day for a few weeks but it will stop it. Act nonchalant about it. Move her away "DD you can't touch private parts, let's play with this puzzle" etc and move on ignoring it. Over and over until she she gets bored and stops testing.

Wow OP. I’m with @BornIn78 100% on this. DD needs a bloody good telling off, yes I would shout and shock her into never doing this again. It’s for her own good-school will end up doing a referral to SS. I think you’ve tiptoed too much on this

Having brought up my own as well as other peoples children I have never seen this sort of behaviour unless a child had been sexually abused
It's not the 'usual' way children attempt to hurt each other, it's not the norm. Hitting, pinching, hiding the other one's possessions are all common place. A six year old deliberately hurting a four year old's private parts isn't something that would usually come into the mindset of a child. If this was my child I'd be speaking to NSPCC. Who has access to the 6 year old when you are not there?

Tell her she will be arrested if she does it again? Tbh you need to crack down on this right now, she is sexually abusing your 4 year old - I am absolutely not saying that she understands what she is doing at all, I don’t believe any 6 year old capable of something like that but from your 4 year olds point of view that’s exactly what’s happening. You cannot leave her alone with your 4 year old if she is doing this, it is a massive failure on your part if it continues.

If the children in my infant class hit I have no trouble telling them that it's against the law and if adults do it they get arrested and possibly go to jail. This is no different.
I do wonder if it's a 'thing' your daughter does now as she knows it's guaranteed to provoke a reaction from you. I really don't envy you at all, it's so hard to know what to do for the best but as you've tried other things maybe try stopping it before it happens or if it does, take your youngest daughter away with you and do something else and say calmly, 'Sister and I are going to play X and you're going to stay here because you've touched her where you know you can't again. No big reaction, just a consistent low key reaction that means she misses out on a nice activity with you. Good luck

@imsoverytired83

Sheleg- thank you. It didn’t work last time but i am going to try again.

It didn't work, you gave the privilege back, and the behaviour continues.

Zero tolerance. You are giving both your dds the wrong idea - the older one that she gets what she wants despite her actions, and the younger one that despite doing everything she has been told to protect herself, that nothing works, and it is continuing.

Zero privileges. Remove everything. Down to favourite Teddy, fancy clothes, special cereal for breakfast.

This behaviour, and the lessons you are showing, is NOT OK

And for God's sake don't use her teacher as a threat. Any kid that tries anything like that on another student is a HUGE safeguarding trigger - a whole swathe of actions would happen immediately, and if in secondary school it would almost certainly lead to fixed term exclusion for sexual assault.

Nip it hard in the bud now. A couple of weeks of 'mum hates me' vibes at 6 years old will not ruin your relationship. A few months of 'mum isn't doing anything to protect me from what my sister is doing to me, even though I've spoken to my teacher like I was told to' is going to leave a lasting impression on your 4yo.

I don’t think the low-key advice is going to work simply because this action is so serious. If she does this to another child, the consequences are so significant for the family. It has to be a situation where she 100% doesn’t do it again.

And I agree with others that there is a good chance she has learnt it from someone else. Unless you have had multiple professionals tell you otherwise, I wouldn’t be so sure.

What is DD4 doing that irritates DD6 so much? Can she articulate it?
It sounds like there's jealousy/resentment for DD4 anyway, which will also need addressing, but what is the trigger for that internal resentment being turned into the outward behaviour?

@Onjnmoeiejducwoapy makes an excellent point-if she does this to a child in school the ramifications will be a lot worse (from a SS perspective-the ramifications for your 4 year old are obviously bad at the moment). Another reason you need to clamp down now.