To not know what to do about this

[imsoverytired83]

DD6 when fighting with DD4 (which happens constantly and about everything) keeps touching her (DD4s) privates. She will do it in front of me. It really upsets DD4 who then tells me and tells nursery who have confronted me about it (thankfully). I gave DD4 lots off praise for telling me about it.

Things I have done

• asked DD6 about her privates and checked nobody has done it to her - she says know and says that if someone did it to her then she would feel sad.
• explained to DD6 that privates are private and she shouldn’t touch our peoples and they shouldn’t touch hers
• bought DD6 a book about private parts and read it to her repeatedly
• ignored it and focused on DD4 being upset and comforting her
• I have removed a privilege because of it
• i have got cross about it and told off DD6 about it (end of my tether)

DD6 struggles emotionally and is having ELSA support at school and at home.

I am really worried about the impact on DD4 but i am running out of ideas and approaches here and its starting to get me down as nobody seems to be able to give me advice on it.

Please be gentle with me, i just want it to stop for both children.

I am not sure of the aibu, I am posting for traffic

I also think you need to get some professional help and advice on this. I would contact the NSPCC or social services for advice in the first instance.

Your eldest daughter is probably fighting with your youngest daughter constantly and touching her in a way of displaying dominance.

I'm also curious to know why she has support in school. It could be part of a wider issue.

What @BornIn78 said!

Take away all screen time. I think she’ll realise then.

It sounds like she is doing this for attention?

But that apart you are being way too soft. Six is old enough to understand this is not OK. It’s damaging to your younger daughter and It’s also going to get her into a world of trouble if she starts doing it at school.

I would be getting properly cross - visibly angry - ie a serious bollocking with a raised voice. Remove her from the situation, go over the rules with her again, and send her to her room/he naughty step for an uncomfortable amount of time. Warn her that if this happens again she will get X punishment - and make that something she cares about - like no TV/chocolate/pudding whatever.

Every time she does it repeat the above.

Threatening her with the teacher isn’t good - it’s not the teacher’s job it’s yours.

If the above doesn’t work then I would arrange a behavioural appointment.

Thank you.

She has been more than aware that I am cross as i have been livid.

I have been thinking about what she is really bothered by and given her swimming lessons, drama classes and anything social has been cancelled due to COVID i was struggling to think of anything but screen time is a good shout and she enjoys a chocolate biscuit when she gets home so that’s something i can remove as a consequence.

How do I get a CAMHS referral? I am going to call the NSPCC for advice tomorrow.

Re: ELSA DD6 had a speech delay which is now resolved but it meant that in reception she used to act out physically to other children because she couldn’t articulate herself. ELSA support is being reviewed next month and has really helped her.

My DH thinks she does it because it gets a reaction from me. They get a reaction from me from their general fighting so i am not sure why she has to resort to this and its not as if its the reaction she probably wants!

The consequence has to be immediate though.. hence time out being the appropriate response. She will soon get bored of doing it if you place her in time out, immediately, every single time. No warnings, no second chances. Really simple and immediate. She does it, she goes straight into time out.

Time out should be in a separate room behind a closed door. That's the best way because then you are not there interacting with her. Being deprived of the interaction with you IS the punishment.

@imsoverytired83 children aren't very sophisticated - a reaction is a reaction. They seek attention, positive or negative. Hence the advice upthread to give her loads of attention for the right behaviour, laid on with a trowel!

Cahms referral through your GP, if they deem it appropriate. You might get early help services instead (in our area, it might not be the same everywhere).

Next time it happens, I'd take DD4 into another room and give her lots of attention, out of sight of DD6. As others have said, attention is attention, negative or not. No reaction to her at all, and she should learn it's no longer effective.
You say she would act out physically, it may be her frustration/anger during the fight manifesting itself. Does she still struggle with some speech/words?

I've been thinking about this today - it is a tricky situation for you! I've been wondering whether your dd1 has any difficulty with empathy that might be related to this?

Don't pin your hopes on a CAMHS referral. They have very long waiting lists with a high threshold for being referrred in many areas, e.g. teens who are self-harming don't get appointments.

Eldest daughter is angry but unable to verbalise it due to age or educational stage etc. But she is still angry. Can you give her an alternative safe choice of displaying her anger eg a child size punch bag/ a big pillow to hit/ a pile of boxes or bubble wrap to stamp on /newspaper to rip up etc? Tell her it is ok to be angry but not ok to take it out on a younger sibling. Spend time with her when she is calm suggesting and agreeing what would be a good outlet for her anger so she knows she can do that next time.

How old are the 2 children?

I agree with other posters
Consequences need to be immediate.

Dd6 we do not do that - in a very cross no nonsense tone(not shout). Remove her from the situation, time out with- you are being placed here because you touched your sister inappropriately and it is not acceptable.

Then take dd4 elsewhere to comfort her.

Dd6 should apologise to dd4.

You need to watch them like a hawk when they are together.

If bickering leads to fighting then interrupt the bickering, change the game, distract them both, send one off on an errand.

Do not allow your eldest the opportunity to do it again.

Also have you actually discussed 'tricky' people? So people who may seem nice but do things they want you to keep secret or threaten to hurt someone you love if you don't do what they want. The pants rule is good but you need to drill it into kids that they can always tell no matter what anyone else says.

@Stompythedinosaur Thank you for thinking of us. I have often wondered this and asked the SENCo to do an assessment which they said came back with flying colours.

@inappropriateraspberryn that’s a good plan. I will try that.

Her speech is pretty much where it should be now but she does sometimes seem like she’s struggles to get the words out of her mouth and i do have to ask her to repeat things.

Thank you for all the insights. I have been trying to do the ‘its ok to be angry but not ok to touch DD4s bits’ and i think we have got somewhere but then she does it again.

What she is doing really makes me shudder and feel so sorry for DD4.

@10kstepsaroundthegardenthen no I haven’t about tricky people - that’s another one i will speak to her about.

Whenever i tell off DD6 she cry’s and says ‘nobody loves me’ to which i respond ‘I do love you but its not ok to do that’.

DD6 does apologise to DD4.

Can i access a similiar service to CAMHS privately?

@CrotchBurn Thank you for your comment

Thank you everyone I have got lots to think about and got my head straighter about it now

I don't think mental health support is the way to go. It won't meet the threshold as others have said. In between the lines what is she trying to tell you OP? Behavior is communication for young children. She knows the boundaries and that this is unacceptable but look at the reaction she gets. I think you are overthinking it a bit with the need for CAMHS etc.
As others have said I would try to go overboard with positivity. How much 1-1 does she get with you - just the two of you?
I would completely ignore her when it happens. No interaction at all but all focus on DD4 away from her sister. Keep to those rules.

If a big reaction isn't working In would be really boring about it. DS1 used to hit Ds2 only in front of me entirely as he wanted the reaction. Eventually we realised if we ignored him (but quietly took away DS2 and comforted him loads ) he stopped doing it. Praise the good, ignore the bad.

Ordinarily I'd agree with praise the good and ignore the bad but as you already know, DD absolutely cannot keep doing this so it absolutely has to stop.

I know that you say that you've seen the Senco but I wonder if something else is going on here? It's quite an unusual thing that DD is doing and a lot of children would understand at this age that this falls into the category of something that you really don't do, but your DD seems to struggle to understand that. Does she struggle with empathy/understanding how her behaviour might make others feel in general?

It seems like you're trying really hard to resolve the situation, but something isn't sticking. Perhaps seeking some professional advice might help? for you OP, it's a tough one.

@MrsPatrickDempsey No time to just ourselves unfortunately. I have a part time critical worker place at school but the rest of the time its just me and them at home during the day. Its very hard to even go for a wee without one of them coming to me saying that the other has done something.

I do remove DD4 from the situation and make a fuss of her. I will try a different room tomorrow if it happens again (hopefully not).