.. to think we should scrap private schools?

[katnyps]

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for their children to have a better education?

I know that there are exceptions to the rule, and great teachers in publicly funded schools, but I get the impression that influential roles in society are disproportionately represented by people paid for education... or am I wrong about this too?

I believe that Finland has one of the best (internationally recognised) education system in the world and (apologies if I'm not quite right here, but broadly speaking) that it is actually illegal there to charge for education?

@Dissimilitude
No this is exactly what I'm looking for - however as per my other comments you'd be potentially waiting 10 - 15 years + for the payout

What could be done to make sure the average child gets a good education in a state school?
Did you mean to only focus on the average child?
What about the children whose parents don't value their education, how can you help them? What about those kids that are bright but are held back by disruptive kids?
There will still be inequalities because the majority of those children will not have a good outcome.

There are many factors to consider, shutting private schools doesn't solve the problem it just pushes it further down the road.

Who pays for those extra children in the state provision?
How does that help the children who parents don't value education?
How does it help the children who are extremely bright but being held back by their peers?
Where do all those private school teachers go?
Where does the money come from?

@Godimabitch

Money should give you an advantage. Otherwise people wouldn't aspire to be successful and there would be massive holes in our workforce and even more people applying for unskilled, low paid jobs. Why bother working harder to earn more money if you cant use that to give yourself and your children and grandchildren a better life?

Interesting viewpoint (not sarcastic!)

@purpleboy
Lots of good questions! Do you think there is an issue to solve?

@katnyps

OK, so taking on board that 74% think it would be unreasonable to scrap private schools (which I have to concede includes the various types, independent, SEN, genuinely charitable etc.) it also seems like the majority agree that, whilst there are some good state schools, largely the state school system needs levelled up? So.. if you've had the patience to read this far, describe one policy recommendation for enabling this to happen

One policy to level up schools? Ensure teachers are performing to an adequate standard and deal with those that aren't - as would be the case in the private sector - performance reviews, performance improvement plans if required and not being afraid to move on those that are failing.

When you think that educational differentials are the cause of inequality, you are referring to a meritocracy, which I don't actually think exists in the UK, as shown by the handling of the pandemic by all those privately educated men.

Ideally state education should be at the level of the best private education.

I don’t think it’s necessarily that the average child doesn’t get a “good” education in state school - I know several state school kids who have gone on to great things - ds’s friend has been accepted to Cambridge for instance. But my experience was that ds wasn’t happy/wasn’t fulfilling his potential and we had the choice to change that.
Taking away the option to give your children opportunities is a communist mindset. I don’t want to live in a country where that freedom is denied. To have the choice to aspire to greater things.
I really don’t know how an “equal education for all” would work - the brighter children would be slowed down by those not willing to learn. So should they all be forced to be “average”? Doesn’t seem fair to me. That’s not even beginning to get into the knife/drug culture that was going on at ds’s school (his female friend had a knife pulled on her by a male classmate!)

I am not in any way saying that state school children can’t do well - this is not the case at all, but I think it’s unfair when children who have the mental ability to do really well are stilted by those who take up all the teachers time or have to work at a much slower pace.

Of course in an ideal world all children would come from families where respect for teachers/a desire to learn was instilled from an early age but it’s sadly not the case.

Dh and I are from poor wc backgrounds and attended below average state schools btw - we’ve worked very hard to give our children the opportunities they have and we also contribute to the schools bursary schemes to try and give something back. Both ds’s attend a wonderful school where they are mixing with so many kids from different backgrounds - they can attend Jewish/Muslim/Hindu/non-denomination assemblies and are learning about different cultures from the friends they’ve made. Some people have the idea that private schools are for the elite, middle class average white person but it’s not always the case. The only thing they have in common at their school is they are all bright, engaged and want to learn.

Would you scrap private medical facilities too? Is it fair that I can jump the NHS queue because I pay for private medical insurance? Or that I have a carefully researched consultant of my choosing operate on my prolapse, rather than a registrar in the NHS because I'm paying for it?

Neither my hubby or I went to private school. But we did pull our daughter out of a free much sort after grammar school and put her in private after advice she would be better at a more nuturing school. Her private school place freed up space for another child to start at the grammar.

@Godimabitch

Money should give you an advantage. Otherwise people wouldn't aspire to be successful and there would be massive holes in our workforce and even more people applying for unskilled, low paid jobs. Why bother working harder to earn more money if you cant use that to give yourself and your children and grandchildren a better life?

Absolutely

It's never beneficial to employ overly qualified (or overly smart, sorry) workers: they get bored, don't do well and steal the spots that others need.

And this is why the refusal to celebrate children who achieve better results, but pat everyone on the back saying well done even when they haven't bothered at all is so damaging.
What's the incentive to work hard for a child when he gets the same results as school than someone who has done next to nothing?

Lots of good questions! Do you think there is an issue to solve?

I think there is definitely conversations that need to be had.

My dc are at private, mainly because our local states are overcrowded with quite a few behavioral issues. I had a choice to make and I chose to do what I felt is right by them.
I find it really sad to talk to my friends who don't have a choice and hear about their dc schooling and the numerous issues they face.
Why should 1 child have an advantage over another?
I don't agree it's fair, but I am also aware we don't live in a fair society, so I could of chosen to make my children suffer in our local state, (not talking all state, just those on offer to us) but I think that's doing them a huge disservice when I have the means to put them in a better environment.

It makes me feel very hypocritical, I own that completely, at the end of the day I am a parent who wants the best for her children, and I am very fortunate to be in a position to do that.
I do however donate a fair amount of money and resources to our local schools as I know how much they are struggling.

The biggest issue I see in our local schools is lack of parental engagement, which in turn leads to unruly, disruptive pupils which disadvantages everyone, and I think until you can tackle that, amongst other things, abolishing private schools isn't the answer.

@edwinbear
No I actually don't consider the NHS to be the same - mostly because I don't think having private medical insurance gives you an advantage towards becoming a policy maker

@WinterdiscontentGlorioussummer
Single sex schools show girls achieve better than in mixed schools. It's black and white stats.

I went to a single sex school and I reserve the right to send my DD to one.

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for better healthcare?

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for better food?

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for better homes?

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for better everything?

Indeed how can we. I don't know the answer, but just picking education is strange to me. People prioritise what to spend their money on. Some people rent and never go on holiday to pay for private education. Some have expensive cars and lots of holidays but send their kids to a poorly rated local comp. Some kids have hundreds of thousands spent on their education and end up heroin addicts, and some grew up neglected in the roughest areas at the worst schools and lifted themselves out of it.

Much boils down to that age old adage - life isn't fair.

@purpleboy
I think it gets difficult when you have your own children to think about then? It's easy to be "objective" until you need to make a decision about what's best for your kids and who knows what decision I will make when mine are old enough!
It sounds from this thread that abolishing private definitely is not a popular option - but I'd like to see a future (30 years from now maybe is more realistic?!) where schools can handle the difficult kids (better finding??) such that the average education at a state school is equal to that of a private school, hence eliminating the need for private schools... the question is, how do we get there?

@WellIWasInTheNeighbourhoo

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for better healthcare?

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for better food?

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for better homes?

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for better everything?

Indeed how can we. I don't know the answer, but just picking education is strange to me. People prioritise what to spend their money on. Some people rent and never go on holiday to pay for private education. Some have expensive cars and lots of holidays but send their kids to a poorly rated local comp. Some kids have hundreds of thousands spent on their education and end up heroin addicts, and some grew up neglected in the roughest areas at the worst schools and lifted themselves out of it.

Much boils down to that age old adage - life isn't fair.

Hear, hear

[quote WinterdiscontentGlorioussummer]**@EuropeanRoller* This is why the state has a responsibility to strive for equal opportunities for everyone.*

Agree with this but, as said in my previous post even though my country provides free education and back it with a 'salary' to study, not all seek further education. Granted a lot go to university at some point, but a lot drops out and we still have around 10 per cent adults, who are considered illiterate (2013 numbers). You can lead the horse to water, but not make it drink.

My point being that no matter what the state does a lot will have been given the opportunity, but for various reasons not been able to make use of those opportunities.

Question is 'a lot' plural?[/quote]
Interesting points - yes, a lot is plural!

Yes it should definitely be scrapped and taxes changed to improve the provision for everyone.

Private school is just a plaster on a bigger issue. And most can't afford that plaster. It's immoral to have it.

They still would have other opportunities though, and live in areas with better schools. We thought carefully about private education but because the schools around us are so good we decided to spend money on private extra tuition, music lessons etc. and have more in the pot for them for university/first home.

@bluegovan

I agree but I doubt it will ever happen, and you certainly won't get the wealthy middle classes of Mumsnet to agree. If only Clement Attlee hadn't had such a fond regard for his public school things might have been different. I think it would transform our country for the better into a much more equal, fair and respectful society. But power in this country is mostly held by people who went to private schools, and they don't want equality, they want to keep their privileges and to pass them on to their children.

Private school, more than any other use of wealth, gives children a leg up forever. Getting rid of them wouldn't stop money being something to aspire to. Going on nice holidays, living in a big house, going to nice restaurants, having a nice car, even extra curricular activities - these are all ways in which wealthier children are advantaged and have better lives. But education is different in that its impact affects future earnings potential, likelihood of getting a satisfying and enjoyable job, getting into your preferred university, plus other things like social confidence and influential contacts. It has a ripple effect throughout a person's life and onto future generations. Going out to posh restaurants every night is hardly comparable.

I do understand why some people choose private. Most people are going to get whatever advantages they can for their own children. And I understand why some children don't do well in the underfunded state system. But if every government minister and wealthy businessman had to use the state system, I think we'd see improvements very quickly.

👏👏👏

But if every government minister and wealthy businessman had to use the state system, I think we'd see improvements very quickly

There were plenty of politicians in the last Labour government and today’s shadow cabinet plus some principled rich left wing people whose children go to state school.
Why aren't they making sure the schools improve?

Maybe it’s not as easy as it sounds.

Haven’t read the thread but I think a far bigger problem is the fact that state secondaries differ hugely due to where people can afford to live. It is the case (sadly) that generally, nicer areas with nicer houses = better schools due to better behaviour.

I think private schools should be allowed on the basis we have private nurseries, private care homes, private tuition, private hospitals.... the list goes on. They relieve the burden on state sector.

Whilst you still have parents who don't value their kids education then equality can never be achieved.
Increasing amount of children needing school places without an increasing budget.

The biggest issue for me is the new generation of entitled disruptive kids. They hold everyone back and there aren't enough resources to deal with them. So they stay in class holding everyone else back. (Solely talking about our local state schools)
Excluding them exasperates their situation as living up to their "naughty" label, these kids never had a chance from the start.

I don't know the answer bar the obvious extra funding needed, and a step further... stopping shit parents from having kids, the second is an impossibility so I don't see the situation ever resolved.

[quote katnyps]@purpleboy
I think it gets difficult when you have your own children to think about then? It's easy to be "objective" until you need to make a decision about what's best for your kids and who knows what decision I will make when mine are old enough!
It sounds from this thread that abolishing private definitely is not a popular option - but I'd like to see a future (30 years from now maybe is more realistic?!) where schools can handle the difficult kids (better finding??) such that the average education at a state school is equal to that of a private school, hence eliminating the need for private schools... the question is, how do we get there?[/quote]
I have children and could afford private education and chose state, it wasn't difficult at all. Partly that was because I don't agree with private education and I am not a hypocrite. But also I felt that in some ways (ones I thought were very important), private education actually has less to offer.

Partly that was because I don't agree with private education and I am not a hypocrite.

it's not that black and white though, is it.

Do you buy the house in the best area you can, and chose the best school you can?
Do you give access to all the clubs and trips your child will benefit from?
Do you take your child on holidays? Do you buy resources that benefit your child and others can't access (books, computer for home learning etc..)

If you don't, sorry, but you are failing your child.
If you do, then you still are an hypocrite. Of course children benefit from their background, as they should!

many of us work damn hard to provide them with the best opportunities. Scrap that, and we might as well stick to a part-time job and at least have more free time.