.. to think we should scrap private schools?

[katnyps]

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for their children to have a better education?

I know that there are exceptions to the rule, and great teachers in publicly funded schools, but I get the impression that influential roles in society are disproportionately represented by people paid for education... or am I wrong about this too?

I believe that Finland has one of the best (internationally recognised) education system in the world and (apologies if I'm not quite right here, but broadly speaking) that it is actually illegal there to charge for education?

*I have children and could afford private education and chose state, it wasn't difficult at all. Partly that was because I don't agree with private education and I am not a hypocrite. But also I felt that in some ways (ones I thought were very important), private education actually has less to offer.

How does private school offer less? Education is the most important thing you can provide for your children, you can afford it yet choose not to offer it?!

Another one wondering how private school offers less?

@EuropeanRoller
Thanks - good to hear both sides!

The difficult children need their own class or school. Class sizes need to be smaller.

@Iknowwhatudidlastsummer
Some people would argue working less and spending more time with their kids was more valuable than working so hard to provide private education. I'm not saying that - ask me again in 18 years what I chose to do! :D

[quote katnyps]@purpleboy
I think it gets difficult when you have your own children to think about then? It's easy to be "objective" until you need to make a decision about what's best for your kids and who knows what decision I will make when mine are old enough!
It sounds from this thread that abolishing private definitely is not a popular option - but I'd like to see a future (30 years from now maybe is more realistic?!) where schools can handle the difficult kids (better finding??) such that the average education at a state school is equal to that of a private school, hence eliminating the need for private schools... the question is, how do we get there?[/quote]
We look at what makes the private sector better at teaching, a check list of how they do x, y and z, ect then we model the school system on that, then when results are similar or better , then hopefully we have a blue print on going forward for a national rollout.

Another idea, is using the philosophy of reinventing society with science at its foundation, rather than, footballers, pop stars, actors ect similar to the town called eureka, in the fictional show a town called eureka.

It sounds from this thread that abolishing private definitely is not a popular option - but I'd like to see a future (30 years from now maybe is more realistic?!) where schools can handle the difficult kids (better finding??) such that the average education at a state school is equal to that of a private school, hence eliminating the need for private schools... the question is, how do we get there?

Make it easier for schools to expel disruptive pupils and have boot camps or at least specialist schools with a different approach to dealing with them.

@fallfallfall

The difficult children need their own class or school. Class sizes need to be smaller.

Two factors that private can select out or provide. Would pretty much close the gap

My suggestion for how to improve state secondary school:
A better solution is needed for the kids who hate school, have terrible behaviour, have no desire to be there, have no desire to be academic. Currently teachers spend a lot of time and effort making them get on in a system which clearly doesn’t suit them and where they are hugely disruptive to others.

IMO they need a school where they can learn a few basic English and Maths skills and then options to train for physical type jobs. Maybe this school could be run by ex-military folk!

There are institutions for the disruptive and disengaged troublemakers. They are called Pupil Referral Units.

[quote katnyps]@edwinbear
No I actually don't consider the NHS to be the same - mostly because I don't think having private medical insurance gives you an advantage towards becoming a policy maker[/quote]
Good point.

@WellIWasInTheNeighbourhoo

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for better healthcare?

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for better food?

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for better homes?

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for better everything?

Indeed how can we. I don't know the answer, but just picking education is strange to me. People prioritise what to spend their money on. Some people rent and never go on holiday to pay for private education. Some have expensive cars and lots of holidays but send their kids to a poorly rated local comp. Some kids have hundreds of thousands spent on their education and end up heroin addicts, and some grew up neglected in the roughest areas at the worst schools and lifted themselves out of it.

Much boils down to that age old adage - life isn't fair.

Buying better material goods doesn't often translate directly into better future outcomes for a human child. A better education does and those people go on to be our leaders and perpetuate the whole thing over and over. No reason to invest in better education when their children will be fine, over and over.

[quote katnyps]@purpleboy
I think it gets difficult when you have your own children to think about then? It's easy to be "objective" until you need to make a decision about what's best for your kids and who knows what decision I will make when mine are old enough!
It sounds from this thread that abolishing private definitely is not a popular option - but I'd like to see a future (30 years from now maybe is more realistic?!) where schools can handle the difficult kids (better finding??) such that the average education at a state school is equal to that of a private school, hence eliminating the need for private schools... the question is, how do we get there?[/quote]
Which governent can you see making state schools as good as private.
Where will the swimming pools and gyms come from.
What about all the sound proofed music and theatre rooms, or the professional accustic sound systems. New buildings, etc
What about the lovely playgrounds, running tracks and playing fields.
Oh yes the state would fund all this
Not even 100 years from today, let alone 30.
We have a tiered education system and always have. I'm sure previous generations didn't go on about how unfair it was, they got on with it.

Actually most private school do not have pension paid for by the TPS (teacher pension scheme). But I paid for 25 years into my state pension as a teacher and I can only tell you over that 25 years - like most pension schemes it’s deteriorated - I have to work until I’m 68.

Back in my old state school where I once had a student threaten to urinate on me, was smacked in the face and sworn at - can you imagine or could I have imagined doing it at 68 years old?? Bugger off. The average teacher in my subject area dies at 67 years old - with those stats I won’t be having any pension.

And to the poster saying teachers need to be accountable and judged on performance to drive up standards in state schools - wtf ?? In my experience the worse the school (I chose to work in schools in special measures in state as I was passionate about all getting a good education!) the worse the school the more daily innovations and paperwork and measuring there is - and staff die or leave or have break downs because of it.

To quote a well loved quote the pig doesn’t get fatter quicker because you measure it 10 times a day instead of once a week.

I don’t think anyone understands the pressure on a teacher in a failing school or ‘lower results’ than average state school.

Interestingly I gave exactly the same lesson on a topic to my year 10 group last year in a state school - a lesson where I was spat at etc and I received 4 students arguing and complaining that I was a ‘shit’ teacher and two parental complaints that ‘their child didn’t understand me’ and so on this was a TOP set and I know I’m an outstanding teacher. Compare with exactly the same lesson to my year 10 of slightly lower ability in my top indie school - 13 in the class. 13 lots of work complete. 13 thank you and two emails from parents saying how much their child had loved my lesson and thanking me for my wonderful and inspirational lesson ....and I even got a card sent to me

Another one wondering how private school offers less?

I don't have any objection to private school at all, but I do think state school gives children experience a broader social expeirence. I would never have met 'rough' people had it not been for my state school experience. Hardly a ringing endorsement, I know, but it taught me how different people can be, how to deal with difficult people and to understand why they are that way (wanting to fight people, aggressive, willfully ignorant). It did also teach me not to judge people from where they come from and to be grateful for my sheltered life with my nice, supportive parents.

Not what all parents might want their children to expeirence, but it is an alternative view.

@2021hastobebetter well done on the lesson plan.
And a great explanation why parents want a selective entry/managed out environment.

I agree with you. However, until education is completely secular, we aren’t going to get anywhere near equality. I would axe the Grammar Schools too and have everyone in the same type of school. In our area, there are private schools, grammar schools and a good Catholic and C of E school. Every one who is not wealthy, religious or clever goes to the High School. This school is struggling with the kids the better schools didn’t want. It also has no money, because whereas the other schools encourage their parents into monthly standing orders, the demographic at the High School isn’t in a position to do that. The whole system needs an overhaul.

@Cam2020, I 100% agree. Young children have no need to see the worse the world has to offer (inequality poverty neglect) before the age of reason 10 or so.

We are moving to private mostly so that our DC can be more challenged academically, do more sports, and be in smaller classes.

So to answer OP’s question: this is the area where state school would need to improve IME. Differentiated learning especially, with no taboo anymore on repeating/skipping classes when needed.

My little Tarquin experienced both private and state schools, but after a year in a desperately bad school, we went back to private to repeat Y12 and do Y13. Tarquin has only one shot at school, and we weren't prepared to sacrifice it for ideology.

YABVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVU. Don't agree with them, don't use them. Why should you get to force your prejudices onto others?

People who send their kids to private school should get a tax rebate

It wouldn't work as over time there would end up even more inequality. Rich parents would drive up the house prices in favoured areas to levels unattainable by average/poor parents and they would be subsidizing their schools with donations that other schools couldn't meet.

There would also be a rise in Free Schools that kept out poor families.

There's no space for 7% more kids in schools. The government does not believe in investing in education so quality would drop fast if schools had to cater for more students on the same budget.

Massive inequality in the state system too. Better area usually means more chance of success at school.