.. to think we should scrap private schools?

[katnyps]

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for their children to have a better education?

I know that there are exceptions to the rule, and great teachers in publicly funded schools, but I get the impression that influential roles in society are disproportionately represented by people paid for education... or am I wrong about this too?

I believe that Finland has one of the best (internationally recognised) education system in the world and (apologies if I'm not quite right here, but broadly speaking) that it is actually illegal there to charge for education?

I suppose I'm approaching this issue from the perspective that I already believe that economic disparity in the UK is a problem, which we need to address. If you don't agree with this first assumption then this probably isn't the thread for you.
If you do agree with this first point, then I'd be interested to hear what other better steps you think we can take to reduce the gap between richest and poorest? In my opinion (hence post) education is so fundamental that we should start there.

The answer isn’t banning private schools. The answer is surely to bring the standards up where they are lacking in state schools.

@unmarkedbythat
I guess it's hard to say because I probably don't honestly know how I'd feel... but I do genuinely think that, even if I could afford private, I'd send my kids to a state school..

@TheTrashBagIsOursCmonTrashBag
Absolutely, but as I've said above I think that if state schools were the only option then wealthy invested parents would insist on better standards (and use their influence / connections to make this happen)

Ah, so you want other people to do the work rather than the current users of the schools - see my point on low aspirations. Education is not valued by a not insignificant part of the population here - it’s that you need to address first.

Definitely need to scrap ability to buy choice in healthcare, utilities (clean water?), healthy food and education in my opinion.

Really? So there should be no private supermarkets? Everyone should be issued government tokens for a range of goods the government considers adequate, so we’re all equal? No private television and media packages? The government ensures we all receive the same mandated access so that we’re equal? No private healthcare? So if the government takes a decision - as all governments do - that a healthcare product such as IVF or cosmetic surgery or treatment with only a small likelihood of success isn't on offer via state healthcare, there shouldn’t be an option to pay for it yourself

Why have you left housing out? If it’s important we all receive equality in diet and healthcare, why should we all also have equal living conditions in a state-allocated flat?

I get that in theory this is the solution, but it's completely unpracticable. And in parallel you'd have to somehow adjust the state system so parents couldn't move into catchment areas, tutor their kids to get into grammar etc. I know other countries it's much more egalitarian and everyone just sends their kids to the local school - Germany seems to have a pretty good system. But that also relies on not having 'ghettos' by area so the schools are all much of a muchness. It could be done by e.g. bussing kids between areas like they used to in the US after racial segregation, but that policy was very unpopular. I don't know what the solution is...

My thoughts were that without private schools as an option the type of people who send their kids there would have more of a vested interest in state schools - more lobbying councils to improve standards, taking governor positions etc.

Even schools with poor results have parents who lobby councils and I'm pretty sure they all have governor boards. Even the new schools without any results yet have governor boards with parent representatives. And schools with great results will also have parents that aren't involved in their child's education beyond buying a home in an expensive catchment area or paying for it. You can't peg the involvement of the parents by their income or type of school.

Economic disparity is a problem in the UK. It's a complicated problem with many factors and scraping private schools doesn't really do much for those on the bottom.

It’s all about aspirations. Most private schools at secondary level are selective, attract tutored children with parents that are invested in education and support them at home. If a family not interested in education and does not see value in educating their children, you can throw millions at them and yet the outcome won’t be good. So even if you force aspirational families into state education, they would still do much better than the rest.

If there was a high achieving, well funded, equal (not based on a postcode lottery or faith) state education system, that catered for all different kinds of children, including special needs, special talents, high achieving, extra nurturing etc then private schools would naturally die out, (and even if they didn't then going to one would not confer an advantage.)

If you do not feel that state schools are up to scratch, then surely it is up to you to campaign to make changes to improve the state system.

It shouldn't be a race to the bottom.

@drsambeckett
No I think all those things are totally reasonable - wouldn't advocate restricting personal freedoms

OP- you might be interested in a podcast called "Nice White Parents". It's US-centric and focuses on race but many of the key points are valid. One of the valid arguments against private schools is that their closure would force wealthy parents to be invested in the state education system. However, this podcast shows that that doesn't mean they would advocate for all children equally. It's a v good podcast.

@BoozeHound

Yes, totally agree, Ed milliband’s got a great podcast episode about this. The inequality and unfairness they create is staggering.

Agree!

if state schools were the only option then wealthy invested parents would insist on better standards (and use their influence / connections to make this happen)

Removing private schools wouldn't remove the ability to educate otherwise than at state schools - unless you're also going to remove the legal right to home educate our children (something done by people across socioeconomic levels, most I know have really poor school options in their areas). I don't think right now is the time to push to remove that or education options in general.

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Scrapping private schools doesn’t scrap wealthy parents. If I wasn’t paying for private schooling then I would be using that money to support my DC in other ways.

The issue isn’t the 7% in private school, it’s the underfunding of the 93% that aren’t.

This completely agree.

@jeaux90
Your daughter will be surrounded by males her entire life and the majority of them will not be dangerous. Your post is suggesting your daughter being around boys is a potential risk is absolutely crazy.

It is all down to whether people will pay the taxes required to fund public services. They won't. Those of us who work in public services and are on PAYE have no choice, but the rich can afford to avoid and evade taxes.

No. Wealthy families would just make up the deficit with private tutoring and/or continue the phenomenon of house prices making some catchment areas elite.

What we need to do is address the root cause - wealth inequality in the UK - for instance, by raising the wages of low-paid essential workers at the cost of the bloated salaries paid to those further up the chain.

Inequality in SEN provision is far more outrageous!

Rich parents: Private diagnosis, private educational psychologist, private therapist to get an EHCP, pay a solicitor to fight in tribunal to change any part of the EHCP they are unhappy with= council pays for child to attend independent SEN school paid for by council.

Parents with less money: 3-4 year wait for diagnosis, relying on council paid biased educational psychologist (if you're lucky) during EHCP process, and being unable to take anything to tribunal due to the paperwork being so beyond impossible for someone not legally trained= Child with SEN ends up leaving school and the parents try their best to home school whilst holding down a job of their own.

It is beyond disgusting

If you don’t object to the above then you will find that it doesn’t matter if you ban independent schools as you will end up with effectively independent state schools due to the children attending them. Independent schools just provide those things in one place rather than having to go to lots of places.

It will never be equal. Family contacts, tutoring, life experiences, work ethic of the family, intelligence etc all count towards the outcome of the child

Ridiculous question. I didn’t go to private school but I don’t begrudge others who have. We all naturally want better choices. You can take away private schools or take away private healthcare but same way or other it will always be that some have better opportunities than others. All in different ways. That’s just life. I didn’t get to go to Oxford but went to an ‘inferior’ uni, so what?
Previously pensioners were able to draw their pensions aged 60. My parents are in their 60s and still can’t draw their pensions, without penalty. I think I’ll be at least 70 by the time it’s my turn. What should we do about that? It isn’t unfair that those currently drawing their pensions are able to. Good for them. It’s how life is.
What about school catchment areas driving house prices up further if there weren’t private schools. Then all the people who have more money would be living closer to the best schools and you’ll be complaining that lower income homes are pushed out.
I’m also sick of the argument that everything is the fault of the Tories.

@toolazytothinkofausername a lot of private diagnosis aren’t recognised when assessing for EHCP and LA will use their own as well

One rape a day in schools in England is not acceptable IMO. Rape and sexual assault is getting worse in schools.

@toolazytothinkofausername I do absolutely agree with your point though. I have 2 DC with SEN, one is very young and one already has EHCP. My DS has independent weekly SALT & OT and the difference is ridiculous. All children should have access to that level of provision.